erikscollectables

And for a bit of visualisation and EKII award to an officer of the Ulans (part of a bigger album)

Interesting comparison, but I would like to know, if your statistics counts with one very important point. EK1 (or EK2) couldn´t be awarded twice to one soldier (in one war). One man - one EK1 (or EK2). But in Austrian army, every grade of bravery medal could be awarded to one person repeatedly. So, in this case, you can´t count one man - one medal of bravery.

At second AH bravery medal were NCO awards only until sept. 1917. Then also officers started to be awarded with some grades of AH bravery (easily identified with K letter on the trifold ribbon).

And finally, correct me if I am wrong, but as I know, bronze grade of AH bravery was the main AH award given to foreign soldiers, not the silver ones. Here is some source with same opinion: http://www.austro-hu....uk/bravmed.htm

I think it makes sense, because bronze AH bravery was the only grade that didn´t attract any pension for recipient.

Regards

The exact numbers of repeat awards I could not find.

I do have them for the Honved and could do extrapolation based on that.

Repeat awards make the number of different people who received a medal smaller so less AH soldiers with an award.

Officers grade medal are relatively rare and I did not count them seperately as there are to little data for that (and to be honest I did not think of it when making the calculation so a good insight, thanks!)

Regarding the Bravery awards being given to German NCO's I have no info whatsoever - any input is welcome!

Regards, Erik

Hello Dave,

Thanks for the added info. Of some of the limitations of the comparison I was aware but of many you mentioned above not yet.

A real meaningfull and scientific comparison probably will be impossible unless better sources for data exist than I have access to. That is why I put some "disclaimers" in the initial post

In the comparison I have divided the total amount of the bravery medals by all enlisted so including the officers so that the type of comparison is at least somewhat "fair" .

The repeat award actually make the relative scarcity of the AH medals a bit higher as quite a number of the total went into these multiple awards (so less people with a bravery award than the total amount awarded) and the EK's were a single time award as you mentioned. On the other hand if the EK's could have been multiple awards many more would have been awarded so with still a relative higher scarcity of the AH medals.

For the AH army there were only "national" awards and for the Germans as you mentioned also all sorts of state awards which would make the real comparison even more difficult , to be honest, impossible.

For the Honved part of the army I have better and more detailed numbers including the officers medals so there it might work if I had the division between officers and lower ranks of both the EKI and II

Regards, Erik

Looked it up:

Only 341 EKI to AH senior officers (of which 144 in 1918)

7478 EKII to AH officers

7123 KVM to AH NCO's

(numbers come from Jorg Steiners book Heldenwerk on the Golden Bravery Medal)

Erik

To me, this is a very interesting comparason!

Is it known how many of these awards were issued to foreigners(how many EKs were awarded to AH and vice versa)? From what I understand, the number of EKs awarded to non Germans was significant.

Also, Hitler was in the Austrian Army, wasnt he? He had both EK awards.

Thanks!

Will look up the number but by heart around 7000 EKII to the AH and less than 500 EKI

If I am correct Hitler was a sergeant in WWI so if he indeed was in the AH army this should be impossible but if I remember correctly he served in a German unit not an AH one.

I have posted this subject in the Austro-Hungarian part but the readers here probably can help me even more so here a link to my other post:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55447-comparison-between-the-prussian-ek-and-the-ah-bravery-medals/

Thanks for your input and help in advance, Erik

Some time ago I wrote a small article in Dutch (for the order and decorations study group) about the KuK Bravery awards. From that article some info on the absolute and relative scarcity of the Prussian EK compared to the KuK Bravery Medals on which I hope to get more input/info and opinions to improve the info I have so far. Please add here!

This is not a scientific piece as the right for that info is currently not available to me. It is just a comparison of some numbers available in several sources and even for these numbers there are differences in different sources. This text also will not go into the acts needed for rewarding the medal, which obviously changed during the war as well. So despite or maybe even dus to all these limitations I add it here as a post to get more info if avialable.

Medal equivalents were a matter of diplomatic arrangements. Between Germany and Austro-Hungary the rules as I have understood them (mainly from Jorg Steiners book Heldenwerk) are as follows:

Germans would get an Silver Bravery Medal 2^nd class as equivalent to the EKII and a Silver Bravery Medal 1^st class as equivalent to the EKI.

This only counts for NCO’s as the bravery medals were NCO medals (only formal officers Bravery award in the KuK is the Military Maria Theresia Order – others were merit awards etc).

The other way around in the KuK army only officers could get an EK and junior officers were eligible for the EKII and only senior officers could get an EKI.

For NCO’s there was only one medal available from the German side the Prussian Military Merit order which was awarded around 7000 times to AH NCO’s.

Now the numbers:

During the wartime the Germans had in total 13.400.000 people mobilised for the war effort and the KuK army 7.800.000. Relative strengths obviously were different during different times in the war this is a cumulative number (will add the source asap).

The Germans:

Of the EKI a total of around 218.000 were awarded which comes down to 1 in every 61 of the total number of mobilized people.

Of the EKII 5.000.000 were awarded which comes down to a rounded numer of 1 in every 3 mobilized people.

The Austro-Hungarians:

Golden Bravery Medal 5.000 times which comes down to 1 in every 1560 mobilized

Silver Bravery Medal 1^st class 143.000, 1 in every 55 mobilized

Silver Bravery Medal 2^nd class 581.000, 1 in 13 mobilized

Bronze Bravery Medal 1.200.000, 1 in 7 mobilized

The total comes down to the Germans 1 of 3 mobilized would have an EK and for the AH 1 of 4 would have a bravery medal.

The comparison is not completely true as the EK was awarded to both NCO’s and officers but more detailed info on the EK to NCO’s compared to officers I have not found – if some one has the numbers please let me know so I can update this.

Anyways the relative (and obviously by the smaller size of the army the absolute) number of Austro-Hungarian Bravery awards is smaller than that of the Prussian/German EK’s. The best comparison can be made between the EKI/STM1 and the EKII/STM2 as they were the official equivalents. As mentioned above:

EKI 218.000, 1 in 61 - SBM1 143000, 1 in 55

EKII 5.000.000, 1 in 3 - SBM2 581.000, 1 in 13

Best regards, Erik

Commemorative rings of all kinds were quite popular in the AH army during WW1 I think.

I recently added a ring of Sturm Baon 32 to my AH collection (mainly papers and medals though).

This is the first one I have seen or heard off.

Are there any other Sturm Baon rings around? Please share if so!

This one is made by Mozanyi, a Budapest maker, also known for its Kappenabzeichen. (has the makers mark and a hallmark)

The Kappenabzeichen of Sturm Baon 32 can be seen in the posting about Kappenabzeichen in page 2, it also features a Helmet with the number 32 on it.

And another photo which I just picked up.

Was hoping it would turn out to be a Golden Bravery Medal winner but unfortunately it must be only a Silver Bravery medal 1st class as his name is not in the list.

The medal itself is just out of view unfortunately.

So far I have seen three variations of wear, this, equal to the Iron cross, on a triangular ribbon as usual in the Austro-Hungarian army and the non standard way in the picture above.

Regards, Erik

Thanks Demir,

I know none of which the ribbon would be worn this way apart from the military Maria Theresia order which has a slightly different ribbon and would be worn on top of the EK2.

So probably it is the war medal.

Regards, Erik

Ah, would have been nice

Thanks for the help!

I found this namecard in Hungary in a group of Austro-Hungarian namecards that belonged to a Hungarian officer in WW1

As far as I know the title, rank and location correspond with Walther von Brauchitsch in WW1

The only thing that makes me doubt it is indeed him is the aD....

Would like to hear your opinions.

Best regards, Erik

The red and white ribbon might be for the Ottoman war medal, so called "Eiserner Halbmond".

Saschaw, thanks for the hint! Just checked in the book on the War Medal (by M. Demir Erman) I just bought last week.

Looks like that ribbon indeed but I did not make the link myself!

I just posted on the Turkish forum for further confirmation!

Thanks, Erik

I was looking for info on this officer on the Austro-Hungarian officer in this painting (by Robert Fuchs - im Felde 1917)

In the Austro Hungarian part of the forum it was suggested that the ribbon below the EK2 ribbon might be of the Turkish War Medal. I just checked in Mr Demir Ermans book on the War Medal and it indeed looks the case.

Maybe someone here can confirm or has more info on who this officer might be?

And the original posting on the Austro Hungarian forum

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54803-officer-unidentified-portrait-by-robert-fuchs-kriegsmaler/

Saschaw, thanks for the clarification!

Regards, Erik

Was scanning the classifieds yesterday and saw a medal for sale I remembered having as well.

Just checked the box and here it is.

Before yesterday I did not know what it is.

Now googeled it based on the info in the classified and it is the Wurttemberg Kriegsdenkmunze for Faithfull Service in two campaigns (between 1793 and 1815).

This seems to be the earliest (1840) version and privately gilded?

I was wondering if there is a typo in the price of the classified or are these really that rare?

(that is the later variant for one campaign).

Another question where I hope help might be here.

This portrait was made by Robert Fuchs (signed R Fuchs Im Felde 1917) and I found it in Hungary some years back

http://neustift-am-w...ler/fuchs1.html

I have no idea who the officer might be. Any ideas and or help is welcome.

He has only one shoulder loop it seems but that would be on the wrong side for a single loop I think?

He has an Iron Crown Order 3rd class which is not bad for a Captain (and a MVK3rd class and silver and bronze MVM I guess)

Next to his EK2 ribbon there is a ribbon I could not identify.

Any ideas?

Based on the info on R. Fucs it is probably the Italian front, Isonzo.

Many thanks in advance for any input, Erik

Thanks, Eric and 922F

The Hungarian photo would match with his work on the Eastern Front.

He does not seem to be wearing any Albanian orders only the EK1, an EK2 ribbon and another ribbon.

Regards, Erik

Hi Eric,

Did a search but could not find it yet, do you have a link or know in which part I could find it?

Regards, Erik

I found this picture in my Austro Hungarian collection and never researched it before.

It says prince (in Hungarian herceg) Wied.

My guess (after some googeling) is that it is Prinz Wilhelm zu Wied who after being King of Albania for half a year in 1914 returned to the German Army. Can anybody conform it is him?

And secondly which awards/orders did he receive in WW1 and what did he actually do?

Thanks for the help!

Regards, Erik

Just found this thread looking for more info on the PKVM (after I found out that was the 2nd medal in the photo) so I thought to share it in this thread.

Dear all,

I am in the process of writing a short article on the Austro-Hungarian Bravery Medals in WW1. Part of the article will be on the documentation. For that I am still looking for a picture of a Legitimation for the Golden Bravery Medal. Of all other levels I have some variations already but not yet for the GBM.

A picture of a triple bar (so for the 4th award) being worn would also be appreciated!

The bar can be found althoug rare but a picture of one being worn not yet (apart from the famous Arigi photo that is)

Also other input is still welcome like boxes for the medal, variations of (unofficial) Diploma's for the Bravery Medal (have only one so far) and other special versions/items etc.

Kind regards, Erik

Who can help me to identify this Austro-Hungarian sabre.

It looks like the M1861 Infantry Officers Sabre but it has only one hanging loop on the sheath ipo the normal 2.

Maybe for an NCO?

The blade has a very interesting text in Hungarian which roughly translates into:

"In honor of your promotion from your machine gun comrades"

It was made by Alex Coppel of Solingen (AC and Balance)

Thanks for the help, Erik

double post, excuses

Yes but these normally would either have a mark like Bronze or would be obvious to be non silver.

This certainly looks like a real silver one.