GMU
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There were only 60 recipients of both--in classes worn on a medal bar--during the World War. There were 164 recipients of the Princely Hohenzollern X and Baden's Z?hringen Lion with Xs during the war. But for all three (and no other German ribboned awards....) just those 4.
Hi Rick,
Thanks for your kind help.
I assume that the 3-ribbon bar predates the 4-ribbon bar. Therefore, the Prussian HHOX was received after the Princely Hohenzollern X and Baden's Z?hringen Lion with Xs.
Would the order in which he got these awards help us out rule one or more of the other candidates? I mean, since the two HHOs could be earned independently one from the order, it is possible that some candidates could have received the Prussian HHO first and then the Princely HHO, right?
George
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Ribbon bars are fine-- no worries.
Only four possible recipients of the 3 Orders on there from what we know from the Award Rolls--
Hauptmann aD (Pio Bn 14) Lothar Baas, of Feldflieger Abteilung 26
Oberleutnant aD Walter-Heinrich Garbsch (Fusilier Regt 40)
Hauptmann aD (Feldart Regt 14) Walter von Holst
or
Oberleutnant aD (1. Garde Regt zu Fuss) Siegfried von Woyrsch
The white and 3 black stripes is the PRINCIPALITY of Hohenzollern's Honor Cross-- the Catholic branch of the family's House Order. DOUBLE Prussian and Hohenzollern branch Hohenzollern House Orders are not at all common.
All 4 survived the 1914 war, hence their aD ranks as shown. It is possible as we add to the Award Rolls we have already published, several may be eliminated-- if they had Austro-Hungarian awards etc.
Thank you very much Rick. Interesting information about the double branch HHO award.
George
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Hi,
I?ve had this since a long time ago. It came together.
I think the HHO is Ok, but I do not know about the ribbon bars. What is the black and white ribbon with the narrow black stripe in the middle? Assuming that the bars are Ok, could this be traceable, or the awards are too common?
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Here is the link to the Ulanka I have:
2nd. Royal Saxon Uhlan Regiment No. 18
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Hi all,
I have acquired the following important document through a dealer, who in turn got this from the sale of the state of a well known collector who died last month. It was informed to me that this collector got this memorable document from a cousin of a friend of the Richthofen Family. This is indeed a breathtaking document.
I am willing to sell this extremely important historical document, signed by Manfred von Richthofen himself, which proofs that the great ace was shot down from the ground thus ending with a 90 years controversy for the bargain price of US $3,000. Proof of authenticity: The dealer guaranteed its authenticity. Just look at the provenance of this document.
Moreover, I swear that that is Richthofen?s signature. I challenge anyone to tell me otherwise.
Anyone interested?
Anyone?
Cheers,
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Isn't that a cross after his printed name, signifying he is deceased?
Mark C
Indeed, that's a cross! He was very dead when he signed that photo.
There were 3 bids and it was sold for over $3,700 !!!!!
I feel very sorry for the buyer. This is really bad.
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The most amazing photo of Manfred von Richthofen is up for sale at EBay.
What it is most amazing about this Sanke Card is not only that it is signed by the Baron himself, but he must have returned from the dead to sign it. The black border around the card indicates that he was already dead when the card was issued. It is a commemorative card.
He was a great man indeed, but I do not think he had supernatural powers.
What a nerve of this idiot to offer this on EBAY without realizing this.
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I have to admit that I did bite the bullet and bought the cased "Godet" that I asked about. You might all think me mad .... but as Stogie said, not that many of this quality with case about. Not a mark on the enamel.
Mike,
I have never believed my piece is a Godet, but I did not buy it as such. I bought it almost 10 years ago because it is beautiful, I wanted to have it, and I could afford it. That is why I want to congratulate you on your acquisition. It is a very beautiful piece indeed. Being happy with what you have is what matters. You will not regret it.
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This is mine. It comes in a Godet marked box, it is made from silver, and it is marked "900" on the back pin. I do not really know if the piece is made by Godet, but it is beautiful and I paid German Marks for it (when they were almost half the price of a US $ !) good old days????????
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GMU, nice oneand better than the one in my collection! "Mine" is a steel that's came as part of a group.
Hi Les,
Thanks! Although silver is nice, nothing compares to having a piece with known provenance, no matter its condition. That is far more valuable to me. You are very fortunate to have one that is attributed to a person.
Ehrenbechers came with a wooden base and in a cardboard (I guess) box. I have seen goblets with their original base, but I have never seen the original box. I believe none survived. Has anyone seen the original box?
You are right Les! I should refer to it as the Ehrenbecher that is presently in my possession instead of using the word ?mine?. As a first victory award, one must not forget what ?victory? really means. Someone risked his live to earn it, and someone possibly lost his own in the same action. That deserves our utmost respect.
George
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Hi,
I went over and found the article entitled ?The Ehrenbechers - Where Are They Now?? by Bill Radfloff and Robert Niemann, which appeared in Cross & Cockade Journal, Vol 10, No 4, winter 1969, page 366, where the authors mention that:
????..it seems that in 1915 Emperor Wilhelm II set aside some of his own personal funds in order that an award might be made for the-then rare first air victory. He commissioned Godet (a Berlin firm of goldsmiths) to provide a suitable award.?
Air historian Peter Kilduff also mentions Godet as producer on page 26 in his book ?The Illustrated Red Baron: The Life and Times of Manfred Von Richthofen? 1999.
Silver made Ehrenbechers are very difficult to find. The Germans stopped making them in silver by mid 1917, and many of them were presumably sold (and destroyed ?) for their more valuable silver content in the 1920?s
Here are more details of mine:
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Stan,
Very nice goblet! I thought the silver ones were all made by Godet. I believe I read this on an article in Cross & Cockade entitled "Ehrenbechers: Where are they now?"
Here is mine.
Here is ace Emil Thuy proudly dispalying his
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he's making this rather personal for me.... I am deeply offended by this:
http://cgi.ebay.de/SACHSEN-grosse-Ordenssp...1QQcmdZViewItem
1011 reviews and 100% positive......
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I believe my late friend Neal said that Baron Richthofen's Carl Eduard Medal was actually INCORRECTLY inscribed with the date " 13 11" on the 1916 bar.
In any event although he was sent it pronto, the "official" date for the his Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha Carl Eduard Medaille 2. Klasse mit Schwertern was
30 DECEMBER 1916, number 67 on the roll, which shows him as "Leutnant Ulanen Regiment 1 zur Zeit Jagdstaffel II 1. Armee."
Rick,
Neal relates in page 184 of Aviation Awards, Vol V, that following the action on Nov 9, 1916, in which both MvR and Hans Imelmann participated in destroying the bombers that were heading to Vracourt, where Duke Carl Eduard?s Headquarters were located, the Duke bestowed both men with his Duke Carl Eduard medal in silver with swords and date clasp.
I have scanned the documents that appear on page 184 on Neal?s book and they show the following:
The document is dated Nov 10, 1916 and is written by the Duke?s adjutant to the Privy Council authorizing both awards to Richthofen and Imelmann. The Privy Cabinet received the document on Nov 13, 1916
There is a clear indication that the clasps should bear the date of the event which is Nov 9, 1916.
The ribbons were presented immediately by the Duke himself.
The documents show that the medals were sent to both men on Nov 16, 1916 and the bestowal documents were sent to Detachment II I. Army on April 26, 1917. Unfortunately Imelmann never received it as he fell in combat January 23, 1917.
Neal (also my friend - miss him much!) indicates that in the photo of MvR?s ordenskissen, the date on the clasp is clearly seen, and that it shows the date Nov 11, 1916 instead of Nov 9, 1916 as it should have been.
Thank you very much for all your efforts in carrying such a research, and for sharing your knowledge with us. This information is vital for all of us who love Imperial awards.
George
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Hi,
I have found more dates :
Ehrenbecher, 17 september 1916,
Bremen Hanseatenkreuz, 21 september 1917
Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz, 22 september 1917
L?beck Hanseatenkreuz, 22 september 1917
Bulgarian Tapferkeit 4 1, 11 june 1917
Imtiaz medal, 4 november 1917
Liakat medal, 4 november 1917
Regards
Christophe
Hi Christophe,
Thanks for this information. May I kindly ask what is the source of this? MvR's first confirmed victory was indeed on September 17, 1916, but I do think the ehrenbecher was awarded that very same date.
Thanks,
George
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Manfred v. Richthofen wrote:
Bronzeb?ste mit gravierter Widmung: Dem ruhmvollen Rittm Frh. v. Richthofen sein dankbarer K?nig 18.9.1917
(free translation = bronze bust / statue with engraved dedication: For the famous Rittmeister Freiherr von Richthofen from his grateful king)
No.19 is the Austrian medal for bravery ( He wrote: ?esterr. Tapferkeits-Medaille)
I hope I could help you
Greetings Solomon
Hi Solomon,
Thank you for the better scan, and for deciphering the text on #14 and #19.
Award #14 is a bronze and marble bust of Kaiser Wilhelm II given to MvR on the occasion of his 25th birthday. This bust was personally given by the Kaiser to MvR on May 2, 1917. Richthofen wrote about this occasion describing it as a small present from the Kaiser. Below is a photo of the bust as displayed in MvR?s home.
Now, I have a question. If this is the bust the Kaiser gave Richthofen on May 2, 1917, why does the bust have the described inscription with date September 18 1917 ?
Dem ruhmvollen Rittm Frh. v. Richthofen sein dankbarer K?nig 18.9.1917The other award (#19) is MVO 3 with war decoration KUK
It is interesting to see that Richthofen had to aknowledge receipt of Lippe?s Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat by signing the document on October 23 1917. It is also very interesting that the document shows the other awards up to that date.
Did MvR fill that out with his own hand? Is that his handwriting?
Thanks again Solomon for sharing this document with us.
George
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This document may help you, too...the original can be found in the archive of Detmold
I showed it in this thread:
Greetings
Solomon
Solomon,
A wonderful document! Thanks
I have seen this document before. It is pictured in Neal W O'Connor's book on aviation awards, Vol 7, page 270, but it is a small black and white picture. Now, thanks to you I have a better picture of it.
Indeed, the document confirms that by that date, October 23, 1917, MvR had only received the MVO 4th. with swords from Bavaria.
I have identified all the indicated awards except for #14 and #19. You have a better copy, and perhaps you (or anyone else at this forum) can help me identify these two awards.?? Thanks!
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This was sold at Hermann Historica and it shows the correct Sword & Date Clasp to the Oval Duke Carl Edward Medal. Richthofen?s had the date 11 / 11 and the year 1917
The correct date on the clasp should be 11 /11/ 1916
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The medal arrive too late to be include in the medal bar. He died on April 21, 1918. he received one telegram inform him he received the RAO 3rd class with Crown and X 15 days ago.
Christophe
Hi Christophe,
Yes, he was awarded the RAO on April 6th, 1918, and he was KIA on April 21st, so I understand why the RAO was not mounted on his bar. However this is not the point I wanted to raise.
I do not understand why his bar was, as you say, rebuilt or rearranged. Why would this happen? I can think about two possibilities: a) The bar was badly damaged between 1918 and 1925 and the family needed to replace some piece or pieces that were lost or broken, or b) to include other important awards that were not included in wartime (like the RAO for example).
Clearly the bar as shown on 1925 is identical to the bar he is shown wearing on several pictures of him taken during his last visit home by the end of 1917 (look the front cover of ?Mother of Eagles? by S Hayes Fischer and Neal O?Connor volume 6) One can clearly see that the bar is identical to the one displayed after the war, but one cannot determine from the photos if the MVO was with crown or not. So, clearly the bar was not rearranged in 1925 to add any new decoration like the RAO, which discards reason b.
Do you really believe that the bar was mishandled or broken between 1918 and 1925? Do you believe that only the MVO 4th Class was lost, stolen or broken requiring a replacement? And if this was so, do you think that the family would have gathered (purchased) the higher order 4th with crown (which supposedly he did not earn) instead of the more common, cheaper and correct 4th class? This does not make sense to me.
Look at how carefully his family preserved all of his mementos, his mother even erected a museum. I do not believe his bar was rearranged to replace the MVO 4th for the MVO 4th with Crown. It just does not make sense.
I take the simple explanation. I think the medal bar displayed in 1925 is his original bar as it was during wartime, and that he indeed earned the MVO 4th with Crown, but there is no written record of it (which does not disprove him being awarded that decoration).
George
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This bar has been seen on his last honnor in 1925. May be the familly rebuilt the medal bar ? I don't have the clue.
Christophe
Perhaps, this is a mystery. But if the bar was rearranged, why was the red eagle order not included as it should have?
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Hi,
Richthofen's never received the Bavarian Military Merit Order 3rd class with crown and X, he's received only the 4th class with X. See in the O'Connor's books volume 6.
Christophe
Indeed, on April 29 1917 (look at table in post #1) At the moment Neal W O'Connor arranged his diplay, he thought MvR recived the 3 class with crown and swords. However, he rectified this error in volume 6 but his medals were sent to Berlin with the 3rd class.
But, how do you explain the crown displayed on his original bar?
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Hello,
I have built this table listing MvR?s awards and the date of the award using as reference Neal W O'Connor's books on aviation awards and K Bodenschatz book ?Jagd in Flanders Himmel?.
I am missing the date of some of the awards. Did MvR receive the other Hanseatic awards the same date as his L?beck award? Does anyone have more info on the dates of his Ottoman awards? He begun as an observer, but did he ever received or qualified for the observers badge?
Can anyone in this Forum help me fill the missing dates? I will appreciate it very much
Thanks,
George
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Never heard of them. They appear in books as genuine. Scary pieces these Flochs aren?t they?
You guys knew it was Floch but you let me discover it for myself uh? Good teachers!
Thanks again for the lesson. I hope, too, my learning curve isn?t so flat.
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George
I hope you are are happy with the cross. It's your collection and if you're happy with it, then that's all that counts.
I don't believe there is anything else to show other than how a real Deschler looks.
Rich
Rich,
To me is more than that. I am new to this forum and to other forums, and for me is all about sharing, discussing, and above all, learning.
When I posted the picture of my cross I truly believed it was good one, and I wanted to share it here. When you questioned the authenticity of the cross, I asked why it was so. The replies given to me did not fully satisfy me, especially when I compared my cross to crosses described in books such as the one I mentioned before to Bill. For example, a low date. Well, there are good crosses like that?? The pin where are crosses with similar pins?? The hallmark? and so forth.
I do not collect WWII stuff and it was sufficient to me to compare this cross, which was given to me several years ago, to those shown on books like Geissler?s
It wasn?t until Bill came up into the discussion and mentioned the pin, the hinge, and the clasp, that I began to really look further, especially going over the multiple threads in this and other forums.
I am now convinced that this cross is not good. It has all the characteristics of what is called a Floch, which by the way, I haven?t heard of this before. I believe it is not mentioned in the books I have, and many books actually present Floch crosses as real (including Previtera?s Iron Time)
Lesson learnt!
I thus rectify to you guys. This cross is not genuine. Thanks for the discussion Bill and Rich, and I apologize for any trouble I may have caused.
George
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House Order of Hohenzollern - info needed
in Germany: Imperial: The Orders, Decorations and Medals of The Imperial German States
Posted
1of 4 out of the entire Imperial German service is simply outstanding Rick. That is no easy task indeed.
Thank you very much for your help and knowledge!
George