spolei

Hello,
look here this third class.
https://woeschler-orden.de/node/2834
In the third class, there must be a narrow gap between the cross arms and the flames.
The third grade is lighter because the flames are hollow. In the fourth grade, the cross body with the flames is of one piece.

It ist a Leser, the last type with silver guilt medaillons, given from 1917 till the end of war.

The amount of the award was based on the position and not on the rank. For example Company commander, regimental leader, battalion commander, etc. The fourth class was the most widespread and was lent from the first officer grade. If the MVO was awarded the same rank a second time, it would be the next higher class , or the officer got a higher position in the army. The silver guilt MVO were given since 1917.  To save resources, there was an order that no real gold awards may be awarded.

15 hours ago, eurorders said:

Is this one likely Leser or Weiss & Co. manufacture? 

Hello, ist is a Leser MVO. The loop of the order is like a ball, typical for Leser.

2 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

Hello,

I would like to correct the above observation regarding the Austrian war ribbon, or Bravery Medal Ribbon as it is better known among Austrians.  There is much confusion about Austrian devices for this ribbon, but a staff member at Dorotheum clarified things for me. 

It is true that both NCO/EM's and officers wore this ribbon, but only officers' ribbons had crossed-swords devices. Such crossed-swords devices on a ribbon bar could represent the Military Merit Cross with War Decoration 3rd Class or the Signum Laudis or the Franz Josef Order Knights Cross. (Sometimes a golden wreath device was used to represent the Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration when available, but these wreaths were not always available, so swords were used instead.)

A device with both a gold crown and gold crossed-swords represents the Gold Merit Cross with Crown with a crossed-swords-device on the Bravery Medal Ribbon (Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone am Tapferkeits-Band mit Schwertern am Band.)

The presence of this device alone on the Austrian ribbon tells me that the bar's owner was an officer.  That means the silver devices on the Bavarian ribbons represent the MVO4X with and without crown, respectively.    

  Thanks for the detailed explanation about the Austrian ribbons. Unfortunately, you can not find the class of the MVO over the color of the swords. These may also be third classes of the MVO. From what rank was the Iron Crown awarded?

I see here rather the ribbon for the order of the Iron Crown Austria, not for the swedish order. As a noncombattant award should the swedish order on the last position. The crown swords edition on the Austrian bravery ribbon disturbs me. The Order of Military Merit had an oak leaves wreath on the field clasp, Signum Laudis had swords, the medals for bravery also had no crown as a support. Finding out a name becomes difficult.

1 hour ago, laurentius said:

Dear Spolei,

thanks for your reply. I fear I won' t be able to show you the back of the agraffe, since the order is sown down tightly. You say that the swords are early Hemmerle. Would I be correct in saying the entire cross is early (pre-1916)?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Hello Laurentius,
there is no sign for silver guilt. This will be real golden medaillons. The satincolour of the lion and the "L" could be patina.
The medaillons of my cross are older, they differ a little bit to yours.

On 02/10/2019 at 19:10, laurentius said:

Dear fellow collectors,

I was finally able to add a nice BMVO4x to my collection. It has sadly been removed from the original medalbar, a naughty Bavarian bar I think, given the folding and the damage to the back of the left arm. I know it was made after 1916, but would any of the more knowledgable collectors be able to help me to determine the maker?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Very nice Hemmerle MVO.
The swords are early production. In my collection is also a early Hemmerle marked 980 with this kind of swords.
Can you see the backside of the agraffe, what is it's marking?
 

here two examples.
https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/c/deutsche-staaten/bayern-koenigreich/page/3

3 hours ago, filfoster said:

 

The medal just visible beneath this one looks like a knight's cross for the Max Joseph Order.

He got the MMJO in the 1870 war, in WW1 the Grandcross of the MMJO

Hello,
that's no BMVO third class swords, it is a Ritter 1 with swords. He got his decorations in the 1866 and 1870 campaigns.
He was reactivated in 1914 as a general, so he would be awarded with the highest class of orders.

2 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

There was, I believe, only one manufacturer of the third class, and the flames were separately attached.

There are third classes of Hemmerle and Leser, two manufacturer.
Weiss has not delivered any third classes to the bavarian "Ordenskanzlei".

2 hours ago, graham said:

laurentius,

I hope this what you are looking for, I have circled a few of the areas of interest:

This is what I first thought to be a 'BMVO3X'!!! but as you can see it is actually is a BMVO4X that has been gold plated. The flames are cast as part of the Order.

 

This is a BVMO3X which has gaps between the cross arms and the flames:

https://woeschler-orden.de/node/4000

VtwinVince,

I have seen both Jakob Leser and Gebrüder Hemmerle BVMO3X's. Not sure if there were any other manufacturers.

Thats right and the weight of the 3. class is lighter. Thats a often seen fake. For a counterfeiter an easy game with a high profit.

 

I have a picture, but I can not share it. So I tried to paint the system of attachment. The flames were put through the medallion ring and pinned inside. The flames are worked hollow inside, therefore the crosses of the third classes are lighter.

Hello,
the first class is a cross of the manufacturer Weiss&Co, the swords are from Leser. This cross is a bad fake., originally a third class.
The MVO is a Hemmerle. The backside medaillon seems new enameled. Normaly the lion had to be seperate and not in the enamel. I think this is a recycled MVO.

On 03/09/2019 at 16:34, dond said:

How is it attributed to Godet?  Which Godet, J. Godet or Gebr. Godet?

This crosses were be offered since 1917 by W. Godet & Sons, Berlin.
Here a MVO with the same swords.
 

That's right. These crosses were made for the production of medal bars. In this case from the manufacturer Godet. They were not awardet. The price is equal as the lent.

Very nice Hemmerle, production 1914/1915. he third class is the latest version of Leser.

This looks quite good. Leser 1913 second type.
here three types of the Leser cross (left first, middle second and right third Type)
The third type was also produced with silver guilt medaillons.

Manufacturer was Deschler.
Swords without the "D" marking, but it doesn't matter. Not all Deschler-swords were marked.

Nice Hemmerle 2nd class with markings GH on the agraffe and on the swords. On the swords the 900 was ground, since they are silvered from non-ferrous metal and not from real silver.

Hemmerle MVO2.bmp

Sorry, but that's a fake. The cross is from the manufacturer Weiss, the swords from Leser.
Weiss didn't produce this class. This would be a third class new enameled and guilt.

You are right. 75 medals were made of gold, 11 medals were produced in silver guilt.
The medal was awarded by Prinzregent luitpold on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of his membership in the Order of Saint George on 15th dec 1889. Only the members, who take part at this jubilee, were be awarded.

The awarded medals were made of gold, not silver guilt. It is a very rare medal and the most offers are copys.

Thank you for this posting.
In a legacy of a Bavarian bravery medalist was also a cross of this club. The soldier was at a Pioneer unit. What is the difference between he silver cross and the blue enameled cross?

19 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

Interresting that he decided to sew his medals on a ribbon bar...  or was this done later by another person?

I think it was done from the owner after WW2.
There are the third Reich medals missing like the airforce servicemedals, hungary warmedal and Sudetenland Anschlussmedaille.
There is no ribbon of the KVK II. In WWII the owner wears the ribbon of the KVK in the buttonhole and the ribbon bar in this way.
After the war he sew his decorations on the ribbonbar for veterans meetings.