Don Bible

These examples are from what I refer to as my Fake Collection.

Reverse side. Please note high quality and patina of example at upper left. That one makes me wonder.

These pieces have been around for many years and vary in quality with many of them being obvious fakes. I have seen a few examples that bear further scrutiny. IF THERE ARE actual examples dating back to the pre 1945 period, they must may have been some sort of property marker, as all of them seem to bear the SAME number for each individual KZ represented by the name on the piece. It is my opinion that they were never used as identification for a STAATSPOLIZEI officer.

These examples are from what I refer to as my Fake Collection.

These pieces have been around for many years and vary in quality with many of them being obvious fakes. I have seen a few examples that bear further scrutiny. IF THERE ARE actual examples dating back to the pre 1945 period, they must may have been some sort of property marker, as all of them seem to bear the SAME number for each individual KZ represented by the name on the piece. It is my opinion that they were never used as identification for a STAATSPOLIZEI officer.

Gents,

I hope that I am posting this in the proper forum. The following two scans are of a badge/ID that is approximately 2 inches square. it appears to made of brass and has some weight to if for it's size (solid piece).

My questions(s) are if it is a real piece or fake and if it is real what exactly is it?

Thanks

Presumably he was a formers Student before enlisting, he certainly wouldn't have had anything masonic as the Fuhrer didn't like such things.

[/quote

Paul,

You are dead on! It is a fraternity pledge pin! I found it listed.

Thanks again.

Don

The inscription is in classical Greek and means pledge or surety but no way is it masonic more likely to be a student fraternity.

Paul

Thank you Paul. It is good to know what the language is, and what it means. It is still a mystery why it was found with the German pins in the veteran's belongings.

Don

Hello Sir Bible,

I d'ont think that your red insignia is a Masonic item, a chretien symbolic with a star are not the Masonic Sign

Sebastien :.

Thank you Sebastien. Does anyone recognize the language in which the single word is written?

Thanks,

Don

CORRECTION: The pin in question is to the far left.

Thanks. Don

Can anyone tell me is the small pin to the right of this picture is Masonic? It was brought back from Germany by a WWII veteran along with the other pins. Thanks

I have told you all I know to tell you. These high quality GFP discs like the one I posted here, appeared in 1994 in company with "Gestapo" and "Prussian State Kripo" discs that have conclusively been proven to be counterfeit pieces. All of them once sold for $2000-$2500, and cannot today be sold for one-tenth of that amount. I think your disc is a poorly cast copy of one of the better quality fakes. I don't know how to tell you how to find out "for sure", beyond what I have posted here.

I can say that a lot of other collectors around the world "found out for sure" when they layed out large amounts of money for the high quality counterfet pieces.

You may see copies of the fakes I have mentioned here by visiting my website at http://home.comcast.net/~donbible/

Don Bible

As a follow up to my last post, I will try to explain in a little more detail.

When the fake pieces of the three discs mentioned above appeared in 1994, there were known originals of two of them for minute comparasion. The fake discs for the ultra-rare Prussian State Kripo disc were counterfeited in at least three different metals...bronze, nickel-silver and silver plated, but all were struck on the SAME counterfeit dies. The Fake Gestapo disc was produced in the correct nickel-silver (neusilber)., and the Geheime Feldpolizei (GFP) disc was produced in neusliber. All were die struck in very high quality.

The fake "Gestapo" disc was the first to be unmasked. Then shortly afterwards the Prussian State Kripo disc was equally discredited. That left ONLY the GFP disc that could not be effectively declared a fake....because the only known original example of that disc had been used to produce the counterfeit. A rather poor illustration of it is shown in a 1989 published Osprey book "German Military Police Units 1939-45" written by Gordon Williamson, and illustrated by Ron Volstad. Today, the whereabouts of that original disc is unknow to the collecting world, but probably still in the possession of the persons who were involved in producing the fake discs.

Since there is no other known original example of the GFP disc, by which to use to unmask the fake pieces....no one that I know can "tell you for sure", but in a case like this, a little bit of common sense can go a long way toward saving one's money.

how do i find out for sure ive had another person look at it and hes said the oposite u have manythanks

I have told you all I know to tell you. These high quality GFP discs like the one I posted here, appeared in 1994 in company with "Gestapo" and "Prussian State Kripo" discs that have conclusively been proven to be counterfeit pieces. All of them once sold for $2000-$2500, and cannot today be sold for one-tenth of that amount. I think your disc is a poorly cast copy of one of the better quality fakes. I don't know how to tell you how to find out "for sure", beyond what I have posted here.

I can say that a lot of other collectors around the world "found out for sure" when they layed out large amounts of money for the high quality counterfet pieces.

You may see copies of the fakes I have mentioned here by visiting my website at http://home.comcast.net/~donbible/

Don Bible

reverse side

This is an example I have in what I consider my Fakes box.

#

photos

In my opinion your badge for the Geheime Feld Polizei (GFP) is a cast reproduction. Even the high quality badges normally seen for sale at around $2000-$2500, are in my opinion, also fake. They turned up "en masse" in 1994, along with counterfeit Gestapo discs and Prussian State Kripo discs.

Don Bible

Thanks for the info Don.

As we can see from your website, you seem to like those discs a lot!

It would make sense that they are fake produced in Poland... L'viv is close to Poland and was even part of Poland before 1939 Soviet invasion of what is now Western Ukraine. I had no idea of what the value of real such item could be there so for 8$ each I decided to buy them.

By any chance, could you post photo of those original discs you have showing the edge (the side). Because it seems mines are weird... the edge surface is not fully flat and they have a kind of "spine" in the middle of the edge going all around the disc, almost like if the discs were made of two one-sided disc stuck together...

matteti, the warrant discs are about my only Third Reich era collecting interest. It is an interesting niche of the hobby, but one filled with "minefields."

At the price of $8 each you certainly are not hurt by the purchase. If real, one is talking in the thousands of dollars for discs such as these.

I keep my discs in a bank vault and do not have one handy to scan, but the edge should be perfectly flat just like a coin. The original discs are die struck.

What you describe sounds like a casting in a two piece mold.

This Gestapo disc is a well known fake of a type that has been around for decades. It has no collector's value. The original discs are much different with no number or letter under the eagle.

Examples of original Gestapo discs may be seen on the website http://home.comcast.net/~donbible/

Nothing is for sale...only for reference to collectors.

The disc for the Secret Field Police (GFP) is, in my opinion, also a fake piece, probably produced in 1994....or later. Several examples of it were sold at that time, before it was exposed that the sellers were also selling known counterfeit examples of the Prussian State Criminal Police (Staatl.Preuss.Krim Polizei) warrant disc in both Neusilber and bronze, along with high quality fake Gestapo warrant discs. Collectors lost a lot of money on the 1994 produced fakes, as they often sold for $2000-$2500...or more.

These GFP discs are still found listed now and then on websites and ebay, but few knowledgeable collectors will touch them. In my opinion, they too are worthless.

If you have further questions, I will try to help.

Don Bible

Hello,

I am not a collector of German items usually, but when it is related to my Soviet collection, I have some interest. So, I picked-up those two items in Ukraine in L'viv (L'vov or Lemberg in German).

I was told they were from the period of the occupation of Ukraine by Germany and they were accompanying Nazi police ID... I would appreciate any information you can have about them because I was not able to find anything on internet.

From the little I understand (or think I understand!) the oval one is for Gestapo (Secret State Police) and the round one for the Secret Field police?

On wikipedia, they say this about the Oberkommando Der Heeres

The Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH) was Germany's Army High Command from 1936 to 1945. In theory the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) commanded the OKH. However, the de facto situation after 1941 was that the OKW directly commanded operations on the Western front while the OKH commanded the Russian front.

Here is the Secret field police (obverse)

Diameter is around 45mm, thickness around 3mm

Hi Don,

Indeed the tag is curved and has two holes, one at each end.

The wear on the holes edges do not look like it was attached to a chain so maybe indeed it was attached to a leather collar by means of rivets

I hope to find out more about this tag someday.

PS. What are the dimensions of your Policedog tag

Ernst, please excuse my late reply. The disc was not where I was at the moment yesterday. The dimensions are approximately 31x52x2 mm.

Ernst, I have only seen a few examples of collar tags for police dogs, but I have not seen one before like yours, which appears to have a hole in each end. It may be an illusion created by the scan, but your tag appears to have a slight curve to it, suggesting that it might have been rivited to the collar of the dog, rather than attached by a single ring to the collar.

In any case it is an interesting tag, which I wish I knew something about.

Don Bible

Rick, this is a truly amazing photograph, and your translation of the names of the GFP officers and your comments are priceless to me. This picture and your translation and comments will be displayed with my example of the Imperial GFP disc, I think it is probably the best documentation that I could ever hope to get, that the GFP organization truly existed. Picture and comments has been credited to THE RICHARD LUNDSTROM COLLECTION.

Sincerely,

Don Bible

Mohawk, Tennessee

Thank you for your reply and this wonderful old photo. This is more information than I have found anyplace else. The photo suggests a lot about how this organization was run, and is the ONLY photo I have ever seen of Imperial GFP officers. Thank you again for your most appreciated contribution.

Best regards,

Don Bible

[attachmentid=63617][attachmentid=63618]Third Reich era police warrant discs have been a longtime collecting interest for me, but I know very little about the police warrant discs used prior to 1934.

Many years ago in California, a police warrant disc for the Geheime Feld Polizei turned up at the Great Western Show, but was not for sale. It was not numbered. I still have photocopies of it.

Another example of the same disc has been on exhibit for many years at the Wehrgeschichtliches Museum Schloss Rastatt in Baden W?rtemberg. It too is unnumbered.

Until recently, those were the only examples of that warrant disc I had ever heard about. A few weeks ago an example of that disc came up for sale on the Internet site of a German dealer, where it remained for several weeks until I learned about it from a German friend. I seldom checked the site for warrant discs.

I ended up buying the disc although I am not normally interested in warrant discs prior to the Third Reich era. It too, is an unnumbered disc.

It is a beautiful die struck example of what I believe is a relatively rare and unknown disc, which I would like to learn more about. I have never seen anything in the German archives pertaining to the Imperial GFP, and am wondering if any World War I historians on this site can shed any light on this apparently esoteric organization.

Thanks for sending the back view of your polizei tag for Diensthund. The backs of both tags appear identical except for the metallic composition.

Best regards,

Please disregard my description of the material in my last post. I mis-spoke. I meant to say it has the same texture and color of the Third Reich era Staatliche Kripo disc...NOT the Gemeinde. Sorry!

[attachmentid=49916]

We seem to posting at the same time. The material of my disc is bronze I think. It has the same color and texture as a Third Reich era Gemeinde Kripo disc. It could be either pre-Third Reich era or post-1945, I suppose. There is really no way I know of at this time to determine the period of use of that type police dog tag. I think these mysteries are what keeps this part of the hobby interesting.

Best regards.

[attachmentid=49912]Reverse side of tag.

We seem to posting at the same time. The material of my disc is bronze I think. It has the same color and texture as a Third Reich era Gemeinde Kripo disc. It could be either pre-Third Reich era or post-1945, I suppose. There is really no way I know of at this time to determine the period of use of that type police dog tag. I think these mysteries are what keeps this part of the hobby interesting.

Best regards.