JimZ

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It is one thing to sell a copy as a copy. Granted. Gap filler (if you believe in something like that!!!!! I don't!!)What really gets me angry is if some were to buy a copy and resell it as an original. Not saying this has happenned here. But I do think that documents do add an aura of authenticity to an award and someone starting out can easily think of the 'bargain' being made by buying something of the sort thinking "Hey its a $100 as opposed to........"

Let it be documented that the above piece is a copy and let us hope if it ever changes hands then it does so as a copy and nothing more. Its an easy mistake to make for someone just starting out and wanting a short cut into the deep end of russian awards and medals!

I?d say, it looks like a late Type 2 with flared edges!?

Gerd,

You got an all catching eye for detail that never ceases to amaze me

Jim

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3 campaign medals displayed in another thread thread.

Stay away from campaign medals marked as duplicates. These do not officially exist and awardees receiving any catchup awards or issued with a duplicate/replacement would infact have received the Var 3 medal characterised by its heavy gold wash.

This mark is one of the easiest to fake. So treat numbered duplicates with caution and more importantly stay away from bobgus duplicate campaign medals

To check out this thread and valuable comments and pics re other duplictae awards in their full context pls refer to: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12346&st=0

Hey Mike,

Did you ever look at it as you being one of the foreign awardees of the Order of the Red Star.

Citation reads.... "For assisting a young man................comrade Mike Riley is derserving of the Order of the Red Star"

I think its such a lovely thought and in a way, so much more personal than just buying someone elses award! A very dear treasure indeed!!

Jim

I do not agree with your point of view.This is not seen, but it is not tampered .

Maybe I was not firm enough when I referred to my "gut feeling". So I will do it more firmly now as its indeed better leave no room for doubt.

To the best of my knowledge and experience collecting Russian medals I have never come across a campaign or unnumbererd medal that was marked as a duplicate. I have not come across any refererences to such a duplicate medal. I have never discussed such an issue with fellow collectors becasue of the fact that such a medal does not officially exist. As a result I would not buy any such campaign medal as it is my firm belief that it has been tampered with.

In any case, there is no logic behind mints marking a medal that has no serial number with a "D". Also, and very sadly, such a duplicate mark is one of the easiest marks to fake with the right tools.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. But it isn't "me" or "my collection" -- it is the people whose medals (and history) I have as my temporary guests, until (and I hope a long time off) they move on to other hands. This is why we OWE these things and PEOPLE our efforts at RESEARCH!

I might be still mumbling here..... but I cannot agree with you more than I do!!!

A toast gentlemen....

I raise my glass to these lovely groups and their very their loving host! May we all respect our medals in the same way as Ed (and many ohers do!) In particular, may we keep groups together and not break them up for a missing variation or award as has been known to happen! This is the way it should be!

Jim

Mike is right. Type 3 with the heavy gold wash was issued for late awards and I assume as replacements for lost medals or re-issues as the case might be. There is no reason at all to stamp a duplicate mark on a medal that is not serial numbered. I cannot follow the logic on that at all.

I usually pronounce myself very boldly when I am convinced that something is a fake or has been tampered with. Of course I do not expect to have seen it all .... but this does remains the first time I have come across a campaign medal marked as "D"... and my gut feeling says it has been tampered. Of course please feel free to disagree with my assessment. However, if anybody does know better kindly enlighten me/us!

Regards,

Jim

Very interesting Dave! Indeed food for thought! I am not keen on duplicate awards myself and I much prefer a lower serial number to a marked duplicate. My preference of course.....but in my book, adding a cyrillic D onto a medal is so much easier than fudging the serial number!

My question - whereas I am aware of numbered awards being issued in duplicate, I am not aware of campaign medals ever being marked as duplicates? Is it something that I have not yet come across ..... or am I right in thinking that this may be added to make that Prague medal more desirable!

Jim

Well I guess that answers my query!

The cross of St George was replaced by the Order oF Glory which was yet again replaced by the Cross of St George!

I can sort of kind of follow the logic behind that at least!!

Jim

I am speechless! I have been rendered into a mumbling mass infront of so many lovely groups.

Congratulations Ed!!! Fabulous!!!!

Jim

No, he dropped it for something (musically nasty) written by Pushkin, but had to restore the old one (but with new words).

Ha.... its difficuilt get used to a completely new anthem.......!!! By keeping the music and changing the lyrics at least the russians knew when their anthem was being played!!!

I realise that I did not come across an Order of Glory or its equivalent........Did that remain purely a WW2 combat award? Apart from the star shape I'd see no reason to change that.

Jim

Thanks for the links. Very interesting actually. So anything remotely connected to the communist ideals/symbolism has in fact been withdrawn. The orders of Red Star, Patriotic war and Red banners as well as Lenin are of course no longer there. The Order of honour has also changed a fair bit as well as the Friendship of Peoples...amongst others! Nevsky sports a blank shield. Yet again I feels like something has been lost and this saddens me. And its not just the lack of symbolism but even the concept....the concepts of motherland, the banner (flag) and especially the value of labour seem to have gone completely.I guess its welcome to the good old self centred capitalist approach of each man to himself....gone to extremes in some cases in Russia!...

As for Ed's comment I agree some of the awards I have seen are in fact very very Czarist in style....Czar Vladimir Putin ..... sounds like Mussolini and his fascination for the Roman Empire......

Jim

We are all busy collecting soviet awards and sharing info on our beloved pieces. But for some of us like myself, time stood still in 1991. Although I like to keep a broad view when collecting I absolutely draw the line at 1991 with no collecting interest in awards after that date.

However, I do find myself asking - What has happened to the Order of the Patriotic War, Order of Red Star, Order of Nevsky, Order of Red Banner (labour and military), Order of Honour, Order of Lenin..... for crying out loud! Are Ushakov, Naxhimov and Khmelnitsky still "heros" honoured by being protrayed on modern day Russian Federation awards. Or did our beloved orders these die a natural death and cease to exist? Have they been replaced in the same manner as the HSU was. And what about the HSL title and star? Also, what transitional pieces if any were issued after the fall of communism...

Can anyone throw any light on this topic? Any owners of transitional pieces or New Russian Federation orders out there....

Jim

Here is a bravery medal which appears to have had a retaining prong (like on the early Neveskys and OGPW?s) or some such device affixed at one time to it?s reverse.

Any other opinions as to what this might have been are most welcome.

Wow.... interesting medal. Never came across that before on these medals so this my idea is that it could be russian ingenuity/improvisation to avoid the medal from swinging too much when worn on the battlefield?

Gee did I actually post that idea!!

Speaking of bravery medals, my absolute favourite one for which i would probably pay an arm and a leg for is the dug up Bravery Medal (5 sided suspension) shown in Echoes of War. Having been folded over and having been hit by a bullet, the medal has two holes (one in the medal itself and one in the suspension). I drool over that page whenever I see it!

Jim

If you had to pull hard enough at the medal the lower part of the suspension will give! I guess OoV's got a tug at some point in its life. It is of course meant to be straight.

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I am attaching a pic of two T1V3 medals which came together as a 'group'. The enamel is gone as there are no screwplates. I have not yet made up my mind as to whether they deserve to be researched! Fact is, a) I think the ribbons are replacements and b) I still have some reservations as to the suspension. However only research will confirm whether they do belong together as their award booklet claims. Sorry but I have yet to take pics of the reverse of the medals and the award booklet.

Jim

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Plausible number but fake fake fake in my books!

Obverse: Shoddy enemal, shoddy gold plating, CCCP letters too small for banner. Suspension ring looks like it was added on. Hammer and sickle are wrong

Reverse: The profile is wrong and fits in what I believe to be a line of fakes. Greater definition on the Var 1 and Var 2 pieces than on this piece. Flash makes it hard to properly observe texture of medal but I doubt this is even silver and if so, its probably cast.

As always....one man's opinion on these uncommon pieces that so often keep sprouting to nab uninformed buyers.

Oh...did I say i think its fake

I the cabinet! I'll post some shots of my stuff in a few weeks time. Just wanna wait for my new babies

can't wait!

can't wait!

can't wait!

Jim

Poor Kev....I believe there is an expression for these guys here taking the mickey....It goes as follows " to cast peals before swine".... he he snigger snigger!

I must admit though ..... I loved the comments on this thread nevertheless

Jim

Interesting pics. My interest in Malta is more Napoleonic and it was great to see the pics of the old fortifications.

Glad u liked them. I'll be working on more pics for this thread in coming months if I manage to find the time to take some pics next timeI visit.

The French themselves never did contribute much to the already existing fortification during the Napoleanic era. Of course they did plunder some of the treasured of the island, some of which are still displayed in the Louvre including the ceremonial sword of the brave Grandmaster Jean Parisot de la Valette. And to give them their due, they were ousted after only 2 years of occupation by the British.

All the fortifications in my pics so far are approx 16th Century fortifications (except for the later WW2 watchtowers of course!!) The knights of the Sovereign Military Order of St John (or Malta) came from the following langues - Provence, Auvergne, France (FRENCH), Aragon, Castille (SPANISH) Italie (ITALIAN) and Alemagne et Angleterre (ENGLAND AND GERMANY). So in any case, the French did have pretty much of a say in the miliatary architecture - having said that, most of the military architects and engineers were Italians.

The British picked up the glove previously worn by the Order and proceeded to construct their own impressive fortifications as well as update the existing fortifications by bringing themup to date with what was then modern warfare.

Jim

Particularly sad when the last man turned out to be a brain-washed child

Kevin in Deva

Yeps....ergo 'man'

Jim

nearly ALL worldwide scouting organisations wore a woggle to hold the scarf round the neck. This is not a gilwell woggle, I have one as a fully trained leader. The HJ did wear them

ttfn

matt gibbs

Gents,

If you check post #2 on the following thread I think you might have your HJ woggle.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11764&hl=1000

I found it earlier today as I was browsing the forum. However I cannot say I know enough about the item to say it is HJ or Scouts.

Jim

Ed and Gerd, I agree on books books books to the nth! But if I may.....do not lose completely lose yourself in books as there is nothing better than first hand experience in handling awards and getting the feel of them. For those of you who can attend events such as OMSA etc, I think it is excellent hands on experience. For those others who cannot, its also good to get together with other collectors when possible compare and contrast notes as well as collections.

And may I add that this forum is indeed a great place to find help. As Gerd said....do not be scared to ask any question....nobody bites and we are all willing to help when we can!

Jim

Wow great pics...sad in a way when u think of the kids in uniform who lost their lives...especially in the final battle for Berlin when all was last and the orders "Fight till the last 'man'" had been given.

Jim

I do not think you need big sums of money to build up a collection. Certainly some top pieces do go at phenomenal prices.... especially if you want to use dealers. No denying that. But then again, collections tend to start bottom up and not top down. By starting with the cheaper medals you slowly get exposure to the full range of awards and you can then start to up the stakes. If your already hunting for the Lenins and Ushakovs without understanding say the campaign medals.....you are shooting for the hip!

I think there are still loads of awards still to be found in flea markets and shops where they sometimes really do not know what they are selling! Of course, some of these people are getting wiser... some too wise...so still beware them unless you are sure of what you are doing!!! But what I mean is this - its all about fiding the right bargain in the right place and sometimes beating the market. And when you know that you did that, you love the piece even more! Of course..I am not saying get suckered into fakes! God knows I probably hate fakes more than anyone else does... (bet you all think you hate fakes more than I do ).

All Gerd said is very valid. Well done! If I may add my advice .... no collection was ever built in a day....and if it was it wasn't ever much fun! - Much as I'd love to have all the soviet russian awards and medals I still do not....and I have been collecting these items way back into last century I admit having missed out on a great many bargains at the time which I really regret today ! But then again, I did not have all the funds in my hand as a student nor did I have full access to the whole range of awards living where I did.

I think the idea of collecting something...anything... remains to enjoy the collection and the actual act of collecting it. Even if you do buy one item per month or even per year, just enjoy the hunt and the kill - looking for it ....sniffing it out....and finding it at the right price. And my last tip.... Whatever you do buy... please do buy wisely!

Jim

I know all about the chemistry, but I just want to feel it....

Then you feel all the stories which could lie behind the metal.....

Kinda dramatic, but it's the way I feel it.

Jacky

As I see it Jacky, you are the guardian of a piece of history (or number of pieces thereof) and it is your duty (heavy word!!) to preserve the medals in your posession. By touching them you are doing the medals no good and you are depositing human oils in the ribbons and on the medals. This will lead to uneven tarnishing and damage to your ribbons (especially the older ones). If you wanna enjoy the medals keep them where you can see them everytime you glance up...like i did. But the less you handle them, the more your medals will love you! Trust me on this one.

Kev - yes, no matter how we store medals we must review regularly to ensure they are keeping as they should. If not we are doing something wrong. So far my ribbons have not faded in the plastic folders but constant review ensures that once I notice something could be going wrong, I can correct it before it is too late....fingers crossed...as even a bit of damage/fading would be a real pity!

Jim