JimZ

The quality of the mint marks look slightly different between 3 pieces....but they all got the same ugly torch flame. Which now explains why I could not match it to documented variation anywhere. Its impressive to see so many around and really makes one wonder.......

Jim

Erm...... before I could even type my next set of queries you replied Andrei! WOW!!

Thanks Gerd and Andrei. Somebody paid around 400 bucks for that piece and seller was guaranteeing as original! Sure....a guarantee is to be taken at face value unless it comes from someone reputable or unless it implies a full money back guarantee with no questions asked if piece is found to be original or not. For the buyers sake I hope he had the latter and not only the former guarantee!!!!!

So please explain to me.... the piece tries to portray itself as what should be a type 2 var 2 which falls within observed ranges 21414 and 82365 (I tried to attribute it as closely as per the PMD classification) - Looking closely at the mintmark, the M sees to be written differently could imply that the actual lettering on the mintmark is different ....more like the type 3? Is that observation correct? The serial numbering is engraved in an unsual manner I agree but what are the chances that these hand engraved pieces could vary? The reverse does looks highly polished and the welding not the prettiest around....

Also would you think that a piece like this would be manufactured from scratch or is it a butchered type 3 as you hint at the serial number being removed and replaced.....hence suspension ring chopped off and screw soldered on...... sounds almost like a sex change...no murder!!! I still hate that torch and I still cannot track it to another known variation....

Is there a fake database thread around for russian pieces like there are in other sections? It seems that although my one question was answered I have another 10!!

My regards,

Jim

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Its not mine Gerd. I was just watching it and studying it like I find myself doing far too often! However I still do not like the torch - if you look closely and compare it to other documented awards the flames look rather different to me...narrower. But as usual, one may end up nit picking on the little details which scream fake/repro when a glimpse of the whole of the order may be screaming louder - "original!" And of course....nothing will ever beat handling the piece!!!

With all the fakes at hand I really believe that I have started to nitpick excessively and have become real choosy and I get the feeling that more often than not this backfires. I protect myself from buying 5 fakes and miss out on x originals! I have been collecting Russian medals for almost 17 years now and what once seemed certainties are fast becoming very grey areas! And I do not think it will get any better!

Re high #ed red banners I would love feedback. Its an area where I definetely need some enlightenment!

Regards,

Jim

On another note but still speaking of red banners:

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Would anyone agree that the torch flame, top of the flagpole and the hammer and sickle look wrong on this piece or is it just my eyes that have gone wrong from staring too much at my screen!!

Jim

I was admiring the group of 5 ORBs on another thread when I had this question I have been meaning to ask in a whole. I guess this is the right place. It seems that 6th, 7th and 8th awards of the redbanners do exist (from what i read in the red bible). Apart from of course probably never being up for sale and costing an absolute bomb if they were, my questions are as follows: Who were the recipients of these high number ORBs and were these just service awards? PS's Echoes of War covers #5 awards...mostly service!......what about higher awards which i suppose would have come about after? Anyone can throw any light on this for me pls. Thanks.

Jim

#18 The 5 Red Banners from the HSU, General-Colonel I.M. Tshistiakov

Wow.....I can understand you spending hours in there. Gotta go visit one day!!! The 5 red banners absolutely blew my mind away....do you have a photo of all his awards...I can see at the top of the pic 3 orders of Lenin.... pls say you have a photo of the whole group!!! Pls pls pls

Jim

Very interesting thread! I must confess these medals are new to me....or rather I am new to them! I will re-read and study this thread again with great interest.....

Jim

In the early days of this thread, a couple of us backed out when things were still civil...just!! . Its a pity really, because inspite of my being very seriously aggravated by the tone that was being adopted as the thread developed, I was still interested in sitting quietly on the fence (where others sat initially before stepping into the forum) and following what this thread would churn out!! Let those of us who have lessons to learn form this, learn them before meeting in the next heated thread.

Jim

And WOW for that uniform Mike! Not my period or line.....but WOW!! Guess its one of those uniforms of which there could never be many around.....1913 Imperial Marine in torpedo division....!!!!

I never cleaned one single Soviet piece from my collection, and also love "dirty" old ribbons, btw.

Now we're talking the same language!!

Personnaly I prefer by far the kind of Seinfeld humor. Not that I wouldn't have a good laugh with some MP sketches.

mmm....I would not completely diss Seinfeld either although yes, a different genre. Pity he does not show on the Swiss telly now that u reminded me of him!

Relax Dolf!

My comment was in good faith and you really did not need to take offence as none was intended. So apologies in case u need them - Like I said its the pic of the duraglit can and the cotton that made me laugh hysterically after other members voiced their shock at the mention of such a product! And I honestly thought you'd also come to see the humour of it all! Of course I laugh at Monty Python sketches - Not everyone does!!! And don't we all have our own pet hates....me included!!

If u read my comments well u would see my (and alas very sad) admission that I really did fudge a couple of pieces many years back when I was a teenager. Guilty as charged for having polished and cleaned brass fittings and medals as well as silver ones....I cry when i think of my old British WW2 stars and medals. I really believed at the time that each item should look like its parade day in 10 minutes time. I was young and very foolish!

The experiences learnt many years back when I was into collecting something so much bigger than me has at least given me the experience to properly deal with my my soviet medal collecting. I can sort of handle and live with a dirty ribbon especially if these are old 50 or 60 year old ribbons on pieces that had, say an original rectangular suspension. I can live with a bravery or combat merits medal that has tarnished and devoloped a patina. In my mind cleaning will always minimally damage a piece....even if microscopically as the very act of cleaning means at least a minimal amount of friction between surfaces or application of chemical substance and I will not make the same mistakes I made in the past! When it comes down to my medals I will say again that I am a 'dirty' guy and that 'dirty' is good!

And yes I did read your comments where u back stepped and said "I belive this product is definetely more appropriate for solid metal items, and only when it's absolutely necessary to remove dirt" My opinion is that is NEVER really necessary to use it!

As for your last comments on veterans cleaning and polishing their medals - Sure.. polish and mount them for show....but if I have the choice between an old uncleaned piece that has lay in a drawer as to one that has been polished and shined over the last 50 years.....I go for the first one...anyplace....anytime.

Regards,

Jim

Its an oldish thread.... but i swear I was up in hysterics and both laughed and cried for well over 5 minutes upon seeing the photo of the duraglit can and cotton especially after members voiced their shocked comments and dissed the idea! But HM recommondation realy took the biscuit! Its the just the way the thread weaved itself and I am sure lines crossed in the process!!

Like many others I ventured into cleaning the odd piece or two in my 'younger' days when shiny was good! Yes yes.....I used Duraglit as well inspite of my hysterics....and it gave a darn good shine...as well as the need for constant cleaning thereafter once I messed with the natural order of things! ! But today I am almost 15 years wiser and am now a 'dirty' guy.....in that I am a firm believer in patina. The less cleaning the less wear and tear and abrasion and the better the definition of the piece. Also the applied protection of the piece stays put and reduces corrosion.

And when a piece has some durt....I wonder from which battlefield this may have come...not necessarily a battlefield if the previous owner was a careless dirty bugger.....but who knows!

Jim

Well I hit the books on this one in the meantime and yes, whereas there were docs signed by Gorbachev in 1989 these carried the presidium stamp and not the president's stamp like this one. Case in point red Bible pg 395 and pg 396 with Gorby on behalf of presidium (395) and Gorby as president (396). Seems that in the case of the booklet we have at hand in this thread Gorby was already promoted before the or the rest of the world knew it.

I stumbled on this topic today. My test for this order is usually simple..... "Red Bible" primarily plus some other pics of reverse of originals. The reverse tells the story! Look at the definition of the profile of the fake versus the original. The edge of the originals are much more defined whereas the documented fake is much smoother around the wreath "curves". (even the small pic Andreas attached already hints at much different profiles!!) - I'd almost go so far to suggest that this particular piece is probably from the same mould as the documented fake... I have seen about a dozen of these "smoother curved" orders on sale and only once have I come across what I believed to be an original. Needless to say, I failed to pull trigger on it! But as mentioned .....its hard to tell the two apart - and quite honestly, if there is an other better fake mould then I am really a sitting duck!

As for the booklet..... verrrrry interesting point raised by Christian about the stamp . I believe Gorby's signature was already on docs dated 1989 docs issued on behalf of the presidium but the stamp would indeed be a presidium stamp as opposed to the president stamps (pls correct me if I am wrong as docs are surely not my forte !!!!). I would have rejected this medal based on its reverse alone yet the document sure adds one heck of a stink to the already smell of burning!

Regards,

Jim

Dear Dolf,

o.k., I have to respect your private opinion, that historic research in the field of phaleristics is worthless . As long as we have an official order of precedence for state awards from the Supreme Soviet life is happy and books are stupid ...

Best regards

Christian

Hey guys,

Let me tell you why I personally would prefer an Order of Glory any time to any other award - well if I could another two of it (a 2nd and 1st class) then I would have cavalier status and priveleges to come with it too. Helps feed me and the family more than 3 red stars or OGPW! (Of course I am not thinking as a patriotic soldier fighting to save my motherland here!! ) However, if my actions merited an award that was higher than Glory, say an ORB, than that is what I would get irrespective of what I wanted because the State's hierarchy of orders would dictate otherwise! Of course, If I got a HSU and Order of Lenin (plus status and priveleges) I would not half be disappointed! I wonder how many may have got to their 2nd class Glory and received an ORB instead of a 1st Class glory!

As far as research goes, this is valid as long as it goes off documented sources. A hierechy based on perception of individual's value of medals is totally subjective and highly individual and cannot be supported by black and white. Research can establish several things. For example (and these exampels are definitley not exclusive) - Why was a person who was recommneded for HSU awarded say a red banner instead? Research can look at a number downgraded recommendations and establish the award criteria versus the documented action. What research can also establish is award patterns, serial numbering/variation changing. It can document order/medal/booklet/variation in minute detail. And the real wealth and potential of historical research is to bring to light award histories locked in archives for us to appreciate the stories behind these orders and make them more than just beautiful collectable items!! Good research will lead to the right conclusions, just as long as the it goes off a proper black and white base.

Christian, I think that your have drawn the wrong conclusions about Dolf's comments (and possibly mine as we seem to we seem to share a common side of this argument). I for one value research. But I for one would not question an official hierarchy of orders and try to create a new one. And I will give you two reasons for this.... firstly we have an official order in black and white so there is really no point arguing about it! Secondly, this black and white hierarchy has served as the framework behind the awarding of all soviet orders (even in the days when some pure combat decorations became long service awards!) And on this note I think I rest my case.

Regards,

Jim

Gents,

Whereas one may argue till dawn and beyond about who the experts are, I think we can safely say (and I hope that most would agree ) that there is an official hierarchy for Orders of the Soviet Union. Discussion is always a healthy thing but why try to re-invent the wheel?

Regards,

Jim

What do you make of this Order of Glory 2nd Class? Converted 3rd class with low serial number or original 2nd class? I suspect the former........

Regards

Jim

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Well each to his own and of course no disrespects intended to anyone. Some medals are just tough to make a call on and pictures as you know do not always do justice. Nothing will ever beat holding and studying the medal.

And with all due respect, nobody is infallible especially when the value of medals is now rocketing up giving fakers more incentive to perfect their work. If its 'easy' to tell a fake now it will only get harder. mark my words!

Jim

Hauptmann

As I see it - I do not like Leningrad as it is very worn out but I'd probably say its genuine (though i would not buy it). Sevastopol and Odessa - Fakes/Repros. Polar regions, Keningsberg and Vienna - Fakes/repros. I do not like your Kiev or Caucuses either. I'd say Fakes/Repros if I had to make a call.

FAKERS!!!! - Although I must say, they do make the hobby so much more challenging!

Jim

I am confident on the Sevastapol because I got it from Nota Bene, Im not confident on the Belgrade though

Do you want better pics of that

Orde of Victory

I would not be sure of either of them. Sevastopol, albeit small pic lacking details does not look completely right. Closer pics would help. Belrade is one of those medals its tricky to make a call on....

Gents...what do u make of this 1870 - genuine or fake? - Jim

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Lovely!

If its one person that is bidding for it then yes. I'd pay it - agreed! But look at the bid history. its almost insane! I was never good at statistics but what would the odds be of finding a missing red star or any missing numbered medal really?

Circa 1944 but other than that, as Modvor some people are out of their mind. Of course if I was selling I'd love such eager buyers! And now, I'll go ! I cannot believe the price paid for this ORS!!