Ceallach

Hi Ulsterman, Plausible. The criteria for award was evidence of at least three months of continuos service prior to Truce. Would assume that it would have been easier to prove combat action. Regards - An Ceallach

Hi Brendan, Could you advise the source of this information. An Ceallach

Very nice and thanks for posting. Do you have any information on his activities ? An Ceallach

Gentlemen, As if the study of Irish Rebellion Service Medals was not complicated enough already, we must also consider the status of those medals that were deemed, on further investigation post 1957, not to have been "duly awarded". The need for this further investigation was deemed necessary as the holder of a Service Medal was to a point automatically entitled to a a service pension. The abstract below from Dail Eireann debates, refers to 693 medals being deemed "not to have been duly awarded". Is this pension linkage unique to the Irish situation ? Any comment would be appreciated. An Ceallach D?il ?ireann - Volume 237 - 28 November, 1968 Ceisteanna?Questions. Oral Answers. - Award of Service Medals. Mr. Timmins Mr. Timmins Mr. T. Dunne Mr. T. Dunne 78. Mr. T. Dunne and Mr. Timmins asked the Minister for Defence (a) why 1917-21 service medals awarded by his Department are now termed not duly awarded and (b) the number thus classified to date. Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard) Michael Hilliard Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard): The Government decided in June, 1957, to institute a new pattern of investigation of applications for the Service (1917-1921) Medal, the old system of verification having proved unreliable in practice. The Government also decided that, where a person claimed a special allowance under the Army Pensions Acts by virtue of his being the holder of a Service (1917-1921) Medal which had been issued under the old system of verification, his entitlement to the Medal must be reinvestigated in accordance with the revised procedure in order to establish that the Medal had been ?duly awarded?, the expression used in the Army Pensions Acts. Where a person applies for the recent concessions to veterans of the War of Independence by virtue of his being the holder of a Service (1917-1921) Medal issued under the old system of verification, his entitlement to the Medal must likewise be reinvestigated. Of some 38,000 Service (1917-1921) Medals issued prior to June, 1957, 693 have to date been held, on re-investigation, not to have been duly awarded, when the applicants applied for special allowances or for the recent concessions to veterans.

It could be that "Killed in Action" was extended to include on a case specific basis, "Died as a Result of Action" as the following extract from Dail Eireann debate on the 1923 Pension Bill would appear to be getting to. Interesting that William Partridge is the context. Mr. JOHNSON: I would like to support the view, if I may, A Chinn Chomhairle, that at least the Minister would take powers in the Resolution, and ultimately in the Bill, to deal with cases of special hardship. I was proposing to ask the D?il to agree to an amendment on the lines that have been mentioned [2157] by Deputy Figgis, and also to ask for amplification of the definition clause, the word ?wound? to include illness contracted as a direct consequence of active service. Judging by the Minister's statement he is not prepared to accept that, but at least it would be desirable that he should have power under the Resolution and under the Act to make provision for cases which are clearly attributable to service in the Army. Let me instance a case which I think is typical, the case of William Patridge, who prided in calling himself Volunteer Partridge. He fought in 1916; he was sentenced, imprisoned, ill-treated, and as a direct consequence, as can be clearly proved, of his ill-treatment, he died. Under the Bill I think his widow and dependants have no claim, but it is clearly a case where there ought to be a claim. While the Minister deprecates dealing with special cases, and I admit the undesirability of trying to argue from special cases to a general principle, nevertheless that is a good reason for getting power to deal with special cases, and the Bill does not provide for that power. http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/plweb...amp;setCookie=1 In this likely scenario Paul Murphy's Hypotheses remains valid. An Ceallach

The unusual elements I would note are (1) whereas "Seachtmhain na Casca" appears precisely between 9 & 3 o'clock on the other 1916 medal's I own or have observed, in the case of this example the lettering extends substantially beyond both of these reference points; (2) the definition of the flames and to a lesser extent the rays are a remarkable contrast to the sharp detailing on the other 1916 medal's I refer to in (1) above, and (3) the ribbon suspension ring is of the larger type. Based on the foregoing I would suggest that it is a new/different strike, but at who's behest - An Roinn Cosanta ? A numismatic oddity indeed. Could you post an image of the medal front. An Ceallach

Officially named & numbered medals were also issued, post 1941, to those who were deceased prior to an application being made. For example a posthumous award was made to Jack Kavanagh (Wexford IV) who died in the 60's and for whom an application was made in the 70's by a family member. An Ceallach

Hi Paul, Yes - in very small letters - Toye & Co. Ltd. London. Thanks An Ceallach

Hello all, can anyone help in identifying this medal ? Regards - An Ceallach

The 1916 Medal was also awarded to holders of a military service pension under either of the Military Service Pension Acts of 1924, 1934 and 1949 where their service for Easter Week, 1916, was certified for pension purposes. Consequently, other than those KIA Easter Week, the remaining recipients of the posthumously awarded 1916 Medal are represented by - (1) military service pensioners as outlined above who passed away before the creation of the 1916 Medal (ie January 24, 1941) and (2) deceased veterans who, had they lived, would have qualified for a military service pension as outlined above. Such applications for the Medal were made by next-of-kin subsequent to the death of the veterans. I recently posted on Jack Kavanagh, an example of the latter. Hopefully this helps. An Ceallach

So it would seem 22,800 stg or so paid to Whytes and 10,900 stg recouped on Ebay, plus whatever was realised privately for the 1966 medal and armband, but unlikely to exceed his initial outlay. Quite the zero sum game resulting in the scattering of a very important collection. Cannot articulate my disgust without swearing so I will stop here. An Ceallach

In addition there are examples of named & numbered medals being issued to those who were deceased prior to an application being made. For example a posthumous award was made to Jack Kavanagh (Wexford IV) who died in the 60's and for whom an application was made in the 70's by a family member. An Ceallach

Regret to advise that the scattering of the Tynan medal group has begun - the 1966 commerative has been disposed of privately !!! An Ceallach

? One of the main things that sets medal collecting apart from other hobbies is the very personal nature of the items we accrue. The pieces in our collections aren?t simply pieces of metal, they aren?t like coins, clocks or keys but rather they are, in many cases all that is left to remind the world of a sacrifice made - either one of time served or, more often than I care to think about, the ultimate sacrifice of a life cut short.? (Medal News June 2006) We have witnessed a prime example in the Tynan debacle of someone indicating knowledge of the price of everything and the value of nothing. A real display of avarice without borders. The Tynan group beyond argument is worth more historically and monetarily than its constituent parts. Without the confirming documentary framework the individual medals/medal group are reduced to a naked state. It would seem from the debate that we have a valuation issue. Where have all the Service Medals (1916 -1921) gone ?? Approximately 54,000 Service (1917-1921) Medals were awarded, of which approximately 2,500 were posthumous and as such officially named and numbered - of these posthumous awards approximately 1,100 were issued with Comrac Bar. Approximately 2,400 Service (1916) Medals were awarded, of which approximately 400 were posthumous and as such officially named and numbered. My preliminary research indicates a potential of approximately 200 named "pairs" (1916 & 1921) with approximately 50 of those pairs being to a KIA/Executed in the War of Independence (WOI) I have being trying to work out a "ranking" model for these awards. This attempt to establish a model is not intended in any way to diminish the contribution of any participant in the cause, but rather to establish relativity. It has always struck me as strange that the market attributes a higher monetary value to a named award as opposed to an un-named one. In reality whether an award was named or not was predicated on whether the recipient was still alive circa 1941 when such awards were initiated, excluding of course those killed in action. An officially named 1916/1921, though, has in my mind more certainty that an un-named, even with good provenance Rank 1 - 1916 named award to Executed Leaders & others. Rank 2 - 1916 named award to Easter Week KIA Rank 3 - 1916 forming "pair" with WOI KIA/Executed (Comrac) & vice versa Rank 4 - 1921 named award to WOI KIA/Executed (Comrac) Rank 5 - 1916 named award to participant Rank 6 - 1916 un-named Rank 6 - 1921 named award to WOI Comrac of high rank/contribution Rank 7 - 1921 named award to WOI Comrac Rank 8 - 1921 un-named Comrac Rank 9 - 1921 named award to WOI non-Comrac Rank 10 - 1921 un-named non-Comrac Un-named are ranked low but could with evidence of rank/contribution and good provenance be valued higher, DeValera/Mulcahy/Brennan/Traynor etc. Likewise for Rank 5 - what price Michael Collins ?. Another consideration would be for participant grouping, ie all four awards 1916 - 1971. Yet another consideration might be a Civil War casualty - and whether Republican or Free State So, value is at times in the eye of the beholder, and in the case of Tynan, I do not believe an excessive value was established through the actions of a few bidders. In fact, relative to the excesses of the full on Celtic economy I would consider the pricing to be about fair value. In closing, I am happy to advise that all the important Tynan documentation from the ?first ebay cull? has been acquired for research by a well known period collector. An Ceallach

Following along with the Darwinian theme, maybe it is a case of monkey see, monkey do. In recent years an established Dublin auction house disposed of the medals of a certain Kathleen Clarke in a similar fashion. At whatever level it is an outrageous and disgraceful travesty. By the way the Fullam group (Whytes 2006), similar in many respects to Tynan, survives intact. An Ceallach

Hi Paul, Overlooked a bit when first read. Actually was an Air India jet, south west of Ireland. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/backgrounde...s_sabotage.html Ceallach

Welcome on board Paul. An Ceallach

Hi Kevin, You have my vote - but could "Anbody notice what" be removed from the 1916/21 topic header. An Ceallach

Hi Kev in Dava, Is there any possibility that our musings on the 1916/1921 Service medals could be kept under a topic head. There have been useful postings on this area in recent past, in particular the contributions of Paul M. Would be a help rather than searching through random topic headings. Just a thought. An Ceallach

Mark, The 1916 medal you reference was stated to be an award to J. O"Reilly and numbered #63. This low medal number would indicate an Easter Week killed in action casualty. Excerpt from the Last Post - pp.43 "Leaving six men at the entrance to Dublin Castle, he led his main body of the Irish Citizen Army into the City Hall, where they took over control. After placing his garrison, Sean (Connolly) went out onto the roof where he was shot dead by a sniper in the clock tower of the Castle. John J. O'Reilly took over command at once, but was himself killed that same evening at about six o'clock............." Excerpt from the Last Post - pp.109 "O'Reilly, John J. 14 Lr. Gardiner St., Dublin. Killed in action at City Hall, Dublin. 24/4/'16. Buried family plot, St. Paul's, Glasnevin Cemetery, Dublin." If a genuine issue, then to some, good value. More on this later. An Ceallach

The Medal Society of Ireland journal # 11 & 14 lists the officially named recipients for 1988 & 1989 respectively - ALL 120. An Ceallach

I guess the arm was twisted - items are no longer for sale. The 1921 medal does not have a Comrac bar which in most cases would indicate that the recipient was not engaged in armed combat. The picture of her grandfather may be misleading - holding the iconic weapon but attired in what appears to be an Irish Free State uniform. The belt buckle is not 1916 issue as hinted in the blurb, more likely post truce. An Ceallach

Gentleman, I agree, a view of the back is a must. This new listing has the same photos as one that ended a couple of weeks back and sold for GBP 2,250. In the case of the latter I am still waiting on a ribbon back image ! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 An Ceallach