Gordon Craig

Dan,

Nice Munkasor group from Charles. My recent thread on Torzsgarda pin should help you figure out what a lot of the pins are that Charles included with the group.

Regards,

Gordon

Ulsterman,

Your point is well taken re the alloy. Since I was not aware of the alloy dates etc. until your post on the Partisan badges I never thought much about the "staybrite" qualities of these badges. Since they came from a factory in the metals business they would have been up there on the latest materials. Thanks for your work on the Partisan Badges alloys. Great stuff. I'll post some other T?RZSG?RDA pins later today. Some use the same alloy others different types of materials.

Regards,

Gordon

Order of Victory,

Yes that is an interesting and different way to connect two VVOs. Usually they are mounted close together without any gap between the ribbons. That is one of the things that attracted me to this pair.

Regards,

Gordon

Ulsterman,

Thanks for the update on materials and the badge it self. I'd like to buy the pair I saw at the market but the price is just too high. I guess I will just have to be patient. Hard to do as I don't own any of these badges yet!!!!! Besides I blew all my money on some nice badges last Wednesday.

Cheers,

Gordon

Kevin,

Thanks for posting pictures of my VVO pair. I tried to copy that picture from WAF earlier today but couldn't open what I copied.

For the other chaps looking at these VVOs there is a picture missing. These are both very early VVOs. The silver one has a small silver content mark of 925 (if I remember correctly) at the bottom of the back of the VVO. That mark is pictured on the WAF site. VVOs with the gold and silver content marks were only issued from 1954 until 15.04.1964. They are hard to find and command a premium in price.

I do not know if the medals bars are being faked yet but that is very possible. However, what is fake? No doubt lots of the medal bars you find on ebay.de were assembled after 1990 just as most of the ribbon bars are. Medals are plentiful and bars to mount them on are readily available as well. If someone were to assemble a medal bar, and do it correctly in order of precedence, there is no way to tell if it was done before the wall came down or after. One thing to watch for is what order the medals are assembled in. The MfS and the NVA mounted their awards in different directions so if you see an MfS ribbon bar put together the way an NVA bar would have been it is an obvious fake. Having one or two awards out of order is not always a sign of a fake. Sometime people just made mistakes. The only way to learn all you need to know about medal bars and ribbon bars is to buy all of the books you can and study pictures, and actual bars if you can, endlessly.

Regards,

Gordon

Grant,

Your latest badge is from the "Kollective der sozialistischen Arbeit" group. Specifically the "Ehrenspange fur die funfte Verliehung".

Regards,

Gordon

Dan,

I tried transfering the pictures but for some reason I couldn't open them afterwards. However, the picture on the WAF indicates it was taken here in BPEST as the VVOs are sitting on my kitchen counter so I must have them here after all. I don't have room to display things here like I do at home so almost everything is in boxes and I don't always remember what I have. I'll dig the VVO pair out over the weekend and take some pics.

Cheers,

Gordon

The interior of the certificate. Note the individual who owned the certificate had received the Bronze award once.

Gents,

I have more to add to this article. Last weekend end I picked up a small brown paper Socialista Brigad IGAZOLV?NY or Certificate. In my article I mentioned that the bronze, silver and gold pins could be won but proof of the award of the previous one at the bronze or silver level was needed to be awarded the silver or the gold pin. I assumed at the time I wrote the article that the diploma awarded would be needed as proof but the certificate provides an easier way. There are actually three lined pages for recording the award of pins. These three pages for listing awards follow the page giving the recipients name, the name of the Socialist Brigad (an interesting fact in itself) and the date of the award. One other interesting thing on the certificate is the place for the KISZ Secretary to sign. I mentioned earlier in the article that different types of awards were given to the Socialist Brigads that were compase dmostly of members in the KISZ age group (up to age 30). This certificate provides ample proof as to just how involved the KISZ organization was in the Socialista Brigad movement.

Regards,

Gordon

Picture #4

Picture #3

Picture #2

Gents,

With some item of memorabilia that we collect, there comes a "story". I am going to start this thread with a "story". Last Saturday morning, Charles and I met at our usual 8:00 at the monthly Militaria Show in Budapest. The only difference this time was that I had a friend along so Charles and I didn't spend the whole morning together. At one point, Charles was offered a bunch cased and uncased awards for x Forints but wasn't interested. Some time later, my friend and I happened to staop at the same table and were made the same offer. I stood there for a while pondering buying the awards, most of which I did not need, and while I stood there pondering the vendor kept adding item after item and when he finally stopped I said Ok. It took the both us to lug the stuff to the car. Not large items but too much for one pair of hands.

I did so well at that table once I went back a second time and picked up the subject of this post. A 10 ?VES T?RZSG?RDA IGAZOLV?NY. There is no simple one word translation for T?RZSG?RDA. Basically what this is is a Certificate recognizing 10 years of faitful service to the CSEPEL VAS-?S F?MMŰVEK (Csepel Iron and Metal works). Csepel is the largest island in the Danube by Budapest and the Csepel Iron and Metal works is well known for manufacturing tanks and Messerschmit fighters for the Hungarian Armed Forces in WWII. In the pictures below you will see the plastic folder that the certificate comes in. Inside the folder is ther certificate giving the recipients name, the nuber of the certificate , date and place of birth of the recipient, the name of the company the rcipient worked for, and the date of the award. Inside the folder, in a celophane envelope was a paper called a T?RZSG?RDA - TAG with the 10 year pin stuck through it. On the other side of the TAG is the pins number "6415" with a repeat of the information on the other document. What I find interesting about this pin is that it was numbered. The number is actually engraved on the back of the pin. In the load of stuff I got at this vendors table were some 10 and 15 year pins to this company and some were numbered and some were not. This indicated to me that they were only numbered when awarded. T?RZSG?RDA pins are common and come in an endless variety of shapes, sizes and colours but this is the first company I have seen that numbers their pins. I find these pins interesting because there were so many of them. I imagine the majority of workers didn't get awards or a Stahanavista so these pins would have been well received as thanks for a job well done. I good I dea I think rather than waiting until some one retires to give them a momento. As I sort through my box of goodies I'l post more of these pins to give you an idea of the wide variety of styles. If anyone out there has some, please post them as well.

Regards,

Gordon

Grant,

You didn't ask to see it, but I thought you might also be interested in seein a picture of the Russian Academy badge that also came with the tunic.

Regards,

Gordon

Grant,

Here is a closeup of the ribbon bar you asked for.

Regards,

Gordon

Kevin,

Thanks for posting the link to the WAF. I thought that I had posted pictures of my double VVO spange on that thread and was surprised not to see it there. Perhaps it was on another thread because I know I posted it there once. Torsten commented that there appeared to be some enamel damage to my pair which was unfortunatley correct. Too bat they are packed away in storage and I can not post pictures of them here.

Cheers,

Gordon

Dan,

Interesting url for the VVOs. If you look at the backs of the medals you will see the difference in construction of the earlier and later models. There are more than two issues but this will do for a start. The bronze is a late issue with the ribbon held on by bending over two pins and a simple hook that the actual medal hangs from. Notice also that the back is rough rather than smooth. The silver and gold grades have the ribbon and the medal hanger held together by two screws. Note that the medal hanger is composed of two loops of wire and that the backs of the medals are smooth. Also note the barrel latch and pin arrangement on the silver and gold grades versus the much simplified pin arrangement on the bronze. The silver and gold grades do not appear to have any silver hallmarks on them however so they are probably the issue just prior to the last one. Cann't remember all of the details right off and don't want to make a mistake in my post so will close with these comments and do a better job in the future.

Regards,

Gordon

Charles,

Number 1094 please.

Cheers,

Gordon

Picture number 3

Picture number 2

Gents,

I've had some time to spend analysing the silver Order of War Merit of Hungarian Freedom that Charles posted and I have come to the conclusion that the medal is a fake. The picture comparison between the one Charles posted and the ones Richard posted indicate this but not conclusively. I don't have an authentic medal like Richard does for comparison purposes with the one Charles posted but I do own the medal that seems to have been the basis for the design which is the Magyar Szabadsag Erdemrend. When you compare these two medals, and Richards posted medals, it is easy to see where the one Charles posted does not measure up. I should tell you at this point that I now own the medal Charles posted. Charles did not sell it to me or anyone else. I'll let him tell you what he did with it.

There are three pictures of what from now on I will refer to as the fake shown below. Here the major things I find wrong with it, aside from the differences in measurements noted in an earlier post;

1-the detail of the front of the medal is not as sharp as the original posted by Richard or my comparison piece next to it;

2-Richard's medal seems to have the same type of ring on the medal as the bronze one in my picture. Look at the large clumsy looking ring on the fake;

3-the ray at the bottom of the fake is missing the cetral ray projecting from the centre portion. In inspecting it I would say there never was a projecting piece from this ray;

4-the green painted wreath on the fake goes all the way around without any breaks in it. On my bronze comparison medal and the one Richard posted the green enamel is not present on the crossed ribbon pieces on the four sides of the medal.

All that being said, I am glad that I now own this piece as it gives me, and I hope the viewers, a reliable way to identify a fake from a real one should you ever come across one of these medals.

Richard,

Would you please post a picture of the Silver medal you have which is the same as the one Charles posted. Soecifically how the ribbon is attached to the medal back. They appear to be different and I would like to be able to compare them.

Regards,

Gordon

William,

The only book I am aware of on Yugslav badges is "Yugoslavia Army Insignia & Deorations 1918-1990 by Brian Furlan and Henad Bjeols. My copy was printed in 1991 and was published by Militaria House, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The ISBN is 0-929757-43-2. It is a photocopy type of book so there are no colour shots of anything except the cover. There is also a book called "Insignia of the Army of Yugoslavia". This book was published in 1997 in Belgrade and only 6500 copies were made. It covers the insignia adopted from 1994 to 1997 and shows uniforms and unit shoulder patches. The ISBN is 86-335-0027-2. This book is in Serbian and English

Regards,

Gordon

Grant,

I'll post the General's ribbon bar as soon as I find the time. It belonged to the General that wore the tunic.

I'm sure Dudley will do a post on his early cammo uniform so I will only say that there are a few different models of jacket and that although it resembles the Russian WWII omeaba pattern these uniforms were designed and made in Germany.

East German forestry tunics are not common but like most things some are more common than others. Early tunics and uniforms for women are rare. Uniforms for the NVA Forestry Service are super rare. I'll post pictures of some of my DDR Forestry stuff when I get a chance.

Regards,

Gordon

Ulsterman,

Sounds like the badge I saw. The PPSHs were very bright and the lettering on the back was in the correct place but not as crisp as on other badges I have seen. Can you post a picture of both sides of the badge?

Regards,

Gordon