kasle

I must admit, I also saw Godet button that was surely used only until 1925-26 with KVK2 1939 hanging on chain. While in this case the explanation can be easier, as all other awards were pre 1926 (owner just added new award to his older chain), here (in Rudi´s example) this argument wouldn´t work, as nearly all awards are ww1 time.

I think the explanation lies in jeweler´s drawers with components. I believe the drawer with buttons was never empty (as the one with chains, needles and eyelets). When new buttons with new type of inscription came, these buttons were probably thrown to the particular drawer with the rest of old buttons left. That is why it´s difficult to predict, how long these old buttons could still appear. This historical problem can be simply avoided by common method - at least three specimen of similar kind must appear to take it seriously as a rule, not as a coincidence.

But one thing is sure already in this moment. Theory, that I. GODET button was used only until 1895, is probably wrong, as this button was already seen on chain with Centenary medal 1897, Baden Jubilee Medal 1902 or Southwest Africa Medal 1907.

(picture is from ebay, not in my collection)

It´s a bad one. The core is made from CD 800 (Carl Dillenius, Pforzheim) type that was used during ww1 and frame is a known fake too.
1870 cores were (mostly) sandcast, blackened and they had very plastic relief of crown and letters. This core is painted, stamped from iron sheet with flat relief - which are features typical for late EK2 1914.

Thanks for confirmation. Very interesting to see such late usage of this type of button with I. GODET instead of J. GODET inscription. Never seen this type of button with ww1 awards.

Beautiful cased chain, thanks for showing. Is this Godet chain button 20 mm, or 17 mm in diameter? Should be 20 mm (this type), but looks smaller (or the minis are of 18+ mm variety)...

And now something from my collection. Miniature ribbon bar from the end of 19th century. This type of Godet button is quite common to see on chains, but ultra rare on buttonbacks. In fact, this is the first military type I have seen (apart from one civilian badge and one PlM fake).

 

Thank you very much. I have a weakness for these Godet miniature boxes. Here is smaller type of red universal box for single pendants (unfortunately not in my collection). 

 

What an interesting mini set. Can we see the interior of Godet & Sohn red box?

Hi Chris, can´t see it sharply, the detail of the ring would help. But W&S is quite common mark. It can be seen either simply struck, or oval incused (check photos). Anyway, nice cross with one of those W&S unique cores.

Some EK2 makers shared so called generic cores, which means they bought cores from a foundry and made just their own frames. Thus the so called Godet core, possibly produced in Godet private Iron foundry, was used also by Meybauer, Roesner and others.

Some makers, mainly those biggest (KO for example) used their own unique cores, but they bought also generic ones to keep up with demand. KO is known with at least 7 cores, of which 2-3 are unique only to KO.

And there were some makers, who produced their own unique cores which were just enough for their EK production. These are the best ones from collector´s point of view, as the maker can be simply identified by core only. Between these belong for example MFH (Max Fleck Hamburg), Carl Zimmermann Pforzheim, M. Hansen and his subsidiary Koch and Bergfeld, and also Carl Dillenius. So if you see this type of core, with typical flat crown, high and slim W and numerals with stressed serifs, you can be sure to find only two marks on it. Either CD, or CD 800. The third very rare possibility is square mark, but it is with highest probability again just Dillenius´ mark, reserved mainly for his EK1 pieces (that where in contrary only rarely marked CD 800).

CD´s EK1 core was slightly different to his EK2 core (mainly the crown), but again it was his unique core not known to be used by other makers.

Nice privately purchased cross by Carl Dillenius, Pforzheim. Since CD used his own unique core, we can be sure it is no BD, or HD even without looking at maker´s mark.
 

Bernhard Heinrich Mayer.

Very nice Zimmerman.

I agree with Chris. Nice piece anyway.

1x scarcer than Knight´s Cross - Württemberg Firefighter´s badge for 25 years of service, 1st type (1885 - 1912). Only 4.000 were awarded. Price is under 100 € even for cased piece.

That´s a really nice chain.

Since Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was awarded with Order of the crown 1st class, some lower ranked Turkish officer could be awarded with 3rd class with swords. If you check Order of the Crown (Prussia) at English Wikipedia, you will see an incomplete list of foreign recipients of this order in all classes - couple of Brits, Italian, Turk, etc...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Crown_(Prussia)

But I think - due to vital German - Turkish relations, this particular award can be just "bringback" of some Turkish gastarbeiter.

I think I know this particular specimen. Great one. Congrats to a nice san-serif type.

Thank you for entries. I know it´s not German Johanniter order. But I am sure it´s original - as it is on Godet marked button. When I obtained this miniature (year ago), I browsed through the web to find a full size match. The closest match I´ve found was - Souveräner Ritter- und Hospitalorden vom Heilige Johannes von Jerusalem, von Rhodos und von Malta, (Cross of Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta).

http://heraldik-wiki.de/index.php/Da...d_of_Malta.PNG

Btw, Godets surely were involved in making Russian awards, for example they made all that White Army stuff during and after Russian Civil war. They as Swiss imigrants had no problem to make orders for Russian imigrants... But I believe it is not the case of this rosette.

Interesting chain. You don´t see Austrian Leopold orden every day. I was interested in finding one lately, so I know it. But I can second you with Johanniter

 

It´s EK2 not EK1. Looks good to me. What is "44"? Mark on the ring?

Yes, Chris. For me, being Slovak, it is very interesting to find out whether some EKs were produced in today´s Slovakia or not. But I am sceptical as well - K.A.G.s were always considered as early crosses. But according to that source they were delivered only since April 1917, i. e. late in the war....

I´ve got in touch with this story on ebay where one EK2 KAG is listed with this background like it was well known fact. So I googled the name of producer and found some more matches. I thought, I missed something...

Hi Eric,

Thank you for the info. I know Konstantin from Russian forums. He posted some great entries there. Thanks to my communist education I still can read Russian fluently. If you post the scan or photo of that page (pages) from his book, I would translate it in return.

Miro

If I remember correctly, K.A.G. is considered as unknown maker of Iron crosses. Browsing the web I found some references, that crosses marked K.A.G. were produced by company Franz Kühmayer A.G. in Poszony (today Bratislava, Slovakia). They were ordered by Königliche Eisenbahn Zentralamt and started being delivered since April 1917. I am posting the link to one of the sources in German. Author of the post with this info (Thorsten) is claiming he will show the evidence in his book "Eisernes Kreuz 1. class version 1914". Post is from 2012, so the book should be out now, Does anybody know this book?

http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-28885.html

This is really nicely worn KO frame. I am just not sure with the condition of the core. Maybe it´s just the angle, but it looks like two different layers of paint are on it.

As I said in last sentence - this is jumping on the bandwagon not before the band - but seven years after it was clear there would be no party.

And I agree with your friend. Modern German awards really do look cheap, but it is problem of many modern awards. They are no more jewels made by jewelers or state mints. More and more they look like carnival stuff made on machines that can be afforded even by small advertising agency.

 

In my opinion this is nice proof that shadow side of this hobby is hardly working on marketing strategies as well. My hat down. This piece will nicely display together with 1941 EK "For robbery and murder". These two "EK eras" I consider very unique, because crosses issued with this dates, were in fact issued only in the dreams of their producers.

Of course, this cross is backed up with fancy looking story about being prototype piece from 2008 when there was public effort in Germany to reinstitute Iron Cross as Bundeswehr award for bravery, so that - of course, no wonder - some prototypes were prepared already. Thus happened that this crap is disquised as very rare curiosity - and a must for every EK collector.

This story has just three, but crucial mistakes:

1. This effort (public petition) started (and ended) in 2007, not 2008.
From Wikipedia: In 2007, a petition to the German parliament to revive the Iron Cross decoration was initiated, quickly receiving over 5,000 signatures. The parliament decided on 13 December 2007 to leave it to the Ministry of Defence to decide on the matter.

Just FYI: In 2008, Ministry of Defence instituted Honour cross of Bundeswehr for Bravery, thus automatically rejecting the revival of Iron Cross.
 

2. Doesn´t matter who is expected to be producer, but I see no reason for him to choose for his "Prototype" cross a well known fake frame and fake hardware, already making its rounds on ebay with 1870 date (mainly). Except one reason: he is the same bloody faker.

3. I would expect really low numbers of these crosses to be made as prototypes. In fact, they flooded the ebay just few weeks ago. One seller on American ebay offers them for 27 dollars per piece, with more than 10 pieces in stock. Probably this guy found some "Bundeswehr prototype hoard", lol.

Btw - why this market flood didn´t happen already sometimes in 2008 - 2009? Who would keep these pieces for 6 - 7 years and started offering them just few weeks ago?