Jerry B

Did RA caps ever come with GS buttons. or was this originally for some other regiment?

OR's caps come with GS buttons, officers caps have regimental/corps buttons.

I bought mine the first week the display was on after visiting it the day it opened. I look forward to it arriving after the display ends 11/11/14. The display is well worht a visit if anyone gets the chance to make it there.

A broken trio, only his war medal to gnr Emlyn Abraham RA #124673, though he went to France in 1915 with the RWF, then transferred to the RGA or RFA, then as far as I can follow his MIC he was commissioned in 1916 as a2nd LT with the RWF, then resigned his commision within 7 months, not sure what happened after this but un 1922 he was commisioned as LT into the RA (T) after changing his name to Emlyn Abraham Williams and perhaps in the 30's was a Captain with the RE, though not too sure on the latter.

I assume his 14-15 star would be to him as RWF, and obviously his war medal is RA (clearly and correctly named to him) and as would his Victory medal I think.

A bit of a mystery and I would really like to fill in some of the gaps. He has two MIC's both noting the other so both are correct for him, though I can't understand all the notations on the first one.

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The collar arrived to join its brother.

As regards the Haka, I was an extra in a TV drama and during the filming they had a number of the 70's all blacks players on set and they performed an inpromtu Haka off camera and they still did it with feeling.

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Jerry

You describe the Viscount as "a very colourful character-he was somewhat of an eccentric". I do so love your sense of restraint and diplomatic phrasing! Pace Jock, I'd have described him as a 'raving loonie'!

Peter

Peter, rich people are called eccentrics, only the poor get called raving loonies!!!!

New Zealand Pioneer Battalion Badge, there were two makers, JR Gaunt prior to sometime in 1917 and then Firmin until the early post war period.

This example is that made by Gaunt with a good makers mark on the reverse and the correct lug fittings, the fakes are on a slider. I also have a collar in the post to me again made by Gaunt.

In 1914 Two Maori Companies were formed, A Company from North Auckland, West Coast North Island and South Island; B Company from the Centre and East Coast of the North Island. They left New Zealand called the Maori Contingent, though their formal name was the New Zealand Native Contingent, in February 1915 and took part in the Gallipoli Campaign from July 1915.

After Gallipoli the Contingent was split up for a brief period with the men being posted to Territorial units but this was found to be unacceptable and the Unit was reformed as the New Zealand Pioneer Battalion on 20 February 1916 and served in France. Initially the New Zealand Pioneer Battalion had two Maori Companies but from September 1917 became an all-Maori unit and was renamed as the New Zealand (Maori) Pioneer Battalion. The battalion was finally disbanded in March 1919.

These changes were reflected in the regimental badges, and the example shown here is the New Zealand Pioneer Battalion badge as worn from February 1916 to September 1917. The original badge and the final badge both incorporated the motto Te Hoko Whitu a Tu (The twice seventy (140) warriors of Tumatauenga, God of War).

The New Zealand (Maori) Pioneer Battalion or Native Contingent and Pioneer Battalion was a battalion of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force that served during World War I. The battalion was first raised in 1915 and served at Gallipoli and the Western Front and largely served as pioneers.[1] "Of these by the end of the war, 2227 Maori and 458 Pacific Islanders had served in what became known as the Maori Pioneer Battalion. Of these, 336 died on active service and 734 were wounded. Other Maori enlisted (and died) in other battalions as well."

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And the collar, sellers pics until it arrives.

Jerry - you have maintained the flow of info. on this man's career - and it has proved of great interest. But then, as you say,

that was the way people lived in those days. We must be careful not to get too political - tempting though it may be. DOWN Jock -

down, I say.............)

I wonder how much the value of this damaged old cap has risen with your research ? Mervyn

Hi Mervyn,

I hope I did not raise anyones hackles over this and I can see Jocks point of view, the old landed gentry were sometimes chinless wonders and in many ways Viscount Tredegar fits the stereotype and then some.

As regards any increase in value, it will be some time before this one leaves my collection, but never say never as things change and happens.

Love those well documented items!

cheers

|<ris

Thanks Kris. For me that is one of the reasons why this one ticks so many boxes. I have lots of military items as you know, but few of them have this level of documentation with them, most if your lucky have a name from which you might find an MIC for him or an entry in an army list. As I posted at the start, WWI caps are hard to find and expensive when you do, staff officer caps the same, then add in he was in the welsh Guards which also adds to it with me being welsh, he was associated with members of the RWF another big area of interest to me, then when you consider he was from about 10 miles from my home and I have been to his house (well two actually and both of them in wales) and also because there are pictures of him in uniform, though sadly not wearing this cap and books and articles written about him. A rare item and one of the best in my collection for so many reasons. I have a few well researched and documented items but none with this level of documentation available with it.

Indeed Jock, an interesting history behind it, but at the end of the day it is what it is and he was what he was, long gone now.

Hi Jock,

In the great war he was ill and could have just called it a day, but instead took up some sort of a position in which he still contributed something. He was originally an officer with the Welsh Guards until illness forced him to leave the trenches and he only, as far as I can find out, used his influence on behalf of others not for his own gain. Sure his status got him another job as a high status courier, but he could have just stayed home and taken no further part in the war if he had wanted.

In WWII he was a working member of the inteligence community in charge of dropping messenger pigeons into occupied territory until his mistakes, none of which were considered that serious as he was merely admonished on two of the charges whilst the other was thown out. One of his charges was that he let loose secret info to some visiotrs to his office at the secuirty services, which was dropped and the other charges were that he had a map on his office wall that had some pins in it showing locations where pigeons had been dropped, but as that was his job and it was well known that is what he did, so how some pins in a large scale map of europe on the wall of an office in the security services would help anyone as it was well knwon that he was involved in dropping pigeons into those areas and the scale of the map was such that no accurate location could have been garnered from it. Which is why in the end his charges did not result in any serious action being taken against him after the formality of his courts martial.

I agree that he was not the greatest example on how to serve your country in times of war, but I still think he did more than he had to and more than many others did. If all you know about him is the sensationalist write up from the mirror book advert piece, then I can understand your opinion, but I read his biography and though he was a spoilt rich kid with too much money he at least tried to do his bit in two world wars.

Very interesting, it is funny and tragic how little has changed. No wonder our country is buggered! Chinless, irresponsible, overprivilged, detached Etonian twats!

Jock

Don't hold back Jock, say it as you see it.

More money than sense seems about right.

He served in both world wars and though largely inefectual, at least he tried to do his bit.

I read the transcript of his courts martial and it seems that largely it was no big deal and he was merely admonished. Interestingly he was the Honorary Colonel of at least two regiments, one an RA TA unit and the other the 1st Mons regiment.

A great acquisition, and, as you say, quite rare. Congratulations.

BobS

Thanks Bob.

For me the best pick up of the year, though I have picked up so many fine caps this year that it is hard to chose just one.

This is a great cap!

Thanks Paul.

A period article on the company, Hamburger Rogers & Co.

Adding one more picture of the bn markings as part of it was missed on this very rare pre great war other ranks forage cap.

I very carefully removed the badge for a photo and interestingly it has the long slider seen on badges during the early Edwardian period that were phased out about the same time as this cap was issued in 1909.

Thank you Jerry B

I like it very much.

No problem. Did you see the RA example I posted?

A WWI field grade officers forage cap for the RA territorial force, 1908-1917. The makers went out of business in 1917 and were well known suppliers of headgear and swords etc prior to their demise. The cap is sadly missing most of its chinstrap but other wise is in pretty good condition for its age and has the RA TF gilt officers badge with laurel leave upper scroll rather than the Ubique seen on normal RA badges.

The maker of the cap, Hamburger, Rogers & co were well known military outfitters who had been in existence for many years, originally established in 1750,


1796 R. and H. Hewetson.
1814 Hamburger and Co.
1827 Hamburger, Harwood and Co.
1839 Hamburger, Rogers and Co.


then from 1841 when Rogers joined as Hamburger, Rogers & Co, Kings st, London, until they went out of business in 1917, though some sources claim Rogers joined in 1839.

They were best known for supplying swords and headgear, though originally they were renown suppliers of lace for the Royal family and for military uniforms.

Very nice. 1953 to 1968 as they were amalgamted that year to form the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. I have two for this rank for the RA, one Great war and the other second world war but othewise very much the same as they did not change much until the 70's.

Sure thing once I have a working camera again! It is indeed a tankie's helmet, they were used by the RN from the '40s through the '80s early '90s.

When you can Simon would be fine. I knew the RN used them as did the Marines I think and by ground troops in NI in the 70's.

Hi Jerry,

I am interested in seeing the caps you have in mind, but be assured that I never bid against friends who have got there before me.

Cheers,

Stuart

Thanks for the offer Stuart. At the moment I am holding back on the earlier caps, but if I decide to go for one I will contact you for your opinion.

Mervyn, the first one is for the Ngbandi tribe and is only one just shown with a montage of 3 views. The 2nd as you state is thought to be a throwing spear and is probably a Zulu type, though I am not at all any sort of expert on these so I have my information from other people.

http://www.zyama.com/ngbandi/pics..htm

Not sure if these belong here, but two African spearheads from my collection.

Ngbandi type

indentified

Jerry,

I took a liking to the forage/pillbox caps and so went for it (them). I was tempted lately by sabretaches but the prices are way too high for me

Stuart

Hi Stuart, the early type forage caps really do look the part and I have yet to add one to my collection, though I have recently been picking up items from nearer that period, with a few WWI period examples and a Late victorian Glengarry for the the Welsh.

I noticed a couple of good looking Forage caps of this type on the bay recently, but not taken the plunge yet as the prices are a bit more than I am used to paying for headgear.

And a lovely forage cap to a volunteer battalion of the South Wales Borderers.

Stuart

South Wales Borderers.jpg

A stunning forage cap Stuart, very nice.

It is a mountain cat, the familly badge of the Sutherlands, the version I show is known as the fat cat, post 1902 among collar badge collecters.