Mike K

Mike thank you for the advice,but I know were to post.My point being the mm on the frame.Yes i know the TR EK2 is good but the marks aint.Found the pic I was looking for,here is what was on ebay.de awhile back.What I would like to see is some more examples of IMP EK2s with a maker on the frame.IMHO these mm are fake.

Scott

[attachmentid=61857]

Scott,

Sorry, I did not realise you were "testing" by asking questions you knew the answers to.

How many 1914EK2s have you seen marked with the crescent moon+crown+800 recently?

Regards

Mike

Hi Rick,

I am happy to learn that they may indeed be good bars. From memory these two, along with a couple of doubles and a couple of single, cost about 40 Euro, so if the news was bad on the bigger bars it would not have been an expensive lesson.

What would be the correct order or precedence for the Austrian bar?

A good point was made re the two TR ribbons looking much newer than the 4 WW1 related ribbons. Was period "upgrading" common - or indeed likely? ie - an Austrian vet with his used 4-place bar goes to his local medal mouting jeweller post-41 and asks for his 2 new TR awards added - would the jeweller be likely to take the "tabbies" off his old 4-place setup and re-use the same ribbons on a "new" 6-place or simply issue a new bar with all new ribbons? I guess the vets finances would come into it.

Re the device missing from the Saxon bar, would it be a 1914EK or a 1939 Spange device? Is it possible that this well decorated WW1 combat vet retired to civil life and was too old (or injured) for regular call-up, hence the 25 yr faithful service and a correct KVK without swords? Saxon's seemed to like EK devices on their bars, hence the question.

Just curious!

Regards

Mike

PS: Rick, sending you a PM.

Maybe I should sell my wb's and start collecting EK's

Ronny,

No, think bigger - collect both! Then again, yes, sell your WBs - especially that nice Assmann!!

Regards

Mike

Hi Scott,

You'd be much better off posting this question as a new thread in "The Iron Cross 1939" section.

From what I can see, the cross itself appears genuine BUT the markings do not appear to have any "age". They are fresh and shiny whereas the frames on the cross show very nice dark age patine. The markings appear to be a "lazy 2", a "." (DOT) and "800". My guess is that someone has taken a genuine unmarked example and marked it up with a COMBINATION of Juncker RitterKreuz markings (DOT 800 + Lazy 2 800).

Regards

Mike

Hi Guys,

I'm glad you like them.

Chip, I should have been clearer. I do not know 100% for sure, but from what I have been able to glean from the web these all items are aparently associated with a/the Bavarian Veteran Flyer's Association, so would date from late wartime to 20s I would think.

Regards

Mike

Fyi, here's a close-up of the makers deails on the stickpin. The other example I have is similarly marked - same maker (L. LERCH, MUNCHEN), slightly different marking positioning and 950 SILBER instead of only 900 on the one imaged here.

Reverse...

Hi,

I salvaged these eBay items that had been split into different auctions. Unfortunately the docs (a photo of him with Pilot's Badge, Militarpass, EK2 and H/burgX docs) went out of my price range but I saved the pics. His name was Unteroffizier (in 1917, from his EK2 doc) Karl Paul Wirthmiller. I have one other of these blue enamel pins but I had not seen the hat device (right) and ?arm patch (left) before. I have to say I like the blue backgroud to the crowned example! I hope you enjoy.

Regards

Mike

Reverse....

Hi,

These arrived recently and I have a suspicion that although all components appear genuine, they may be "put together" bars. I have been reading the weekly fake updates but did not notice these ones there. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards

Mike

A rough inside scan - I need to re-do it with the digicam. Note that there is a recessed area (very hard to make out though, even in hand) for the cross and the cross is a very snug (but perfect) fit. Image a red RAO4 case - except black - and you'll know how big it is! I don't recall seeing many like this one before.

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Oh, I was teasing. I forgot to add the best bit - the case!

Regards

Mike

Reverse....I'm sure the interesting markings are apparent. From what I can determine, the markigns are very crisp and there does not appear to be any deformation on the obverse frame.

Hi,

I don't collect EK2s but I could not resist this one. I believe it to be an earlier cross, but welcome other's thoughts. Size is ~42.84 x 43.00 mm. Frames are silver, the core is loose and imo relatively thick cast iron. I haven't matched a maker yet - KO is close but KAG (and 800 "v") is a much closer match - neither are exact matches though imo.

Regards

Mike

Reverse scans (sorry for the funny angle of the larger one)...

Hi,

Here are a couple of SCREWBACK minis - something a bit more unusual than your typical mini. Possibly screwback button-hole devices??

They make an interesting comparison and just go to show that nothing is safe though!

The bigger one (right) is ~17.65 mm wide, the smaller one (left) is ~14.65 mm wide (the larger cross that is, the screwdisk is 21.4 mm diameter). The detail on the smaller one - a DOUBLE EK1/EK2 screwback ( ) is excellent, as is the construction. The detail on the larger one is poor and the screwback setup is "strange".

As far as I am concerned, the smaller double screwback is a brilliant little original, but imo the larger one is a fake. It's not bendable, but is has a soft cast look to it in hand. I hope others can make use of the comparison.

Regards

Mike

Obverse....

Hi,

Rick, Paul, I am NOT making any definitive statements about the exact periods these S&L U-boats were made. The detail and finish on both looks very good to me. I have raised the hardware only as a questionmark because of some study on WW1 Marine WBs - where this hardware first came to my attention when I found examples being sold by a dealer openly as 50s/60s replacements (by S&L). I'm attaching a pic of a similar example (imo definitely post-45 from worn dies) but please keep in mind that I've seen smaller pics of examples with MUCH nicer finish.

I know that similar hardware was in use in the (probably) 20s as I've seen some Balkenkreuz and SchlesienAdler with this sort of hinge and needle pin. Like most collectors, I don't know exactly how many hardware variations S&L used for various badges (although I would not date these U-boat examples as WW2 produced). It's always possible that S&L re-introduced a 20s (or ?30s) style hinge/pin/catch combination in the 50s/60s.

Paul, re the finish on your catch, I can only relate a personal experience. I have in my collection a WW1 Marine Gold WB that I eventually determined to be one of the post-45 examples. What threw me for a long time was the fact that the "U" hinge and needle pin had been replaced by a genuine WW1 wide folded hinge and "normal" diameter round pin. The whole thing had then been repainted to hide the neat solder job at the base of the hinge and then re-aged/polished! The catch appears to be the same as Rick's example though. Here's a link to that badge;

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1483&hl=wound

Note that I have not stripped the gold re-paint from this tombak badge but underneath I can see a good quality lighter gold colour ?plated finish.

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Paul, is the catch a partial repair/replacement? It looks like there is a gold coloured wide & thin section under a silver catch?

My concern with this type of hinge/pin and thin wide catch (as the "baseplate" suggests to me) is that this hardware is KNOWN from S&L 50s/60s examples.

Regards

Mike

Also an really nice collection!!!

You said: "middle right is probably 20s/30s". Which one do you mean?

Hi westfale (?real name?),

Sorry for not being more specific, I meant the one to the right of the screwback (middle row of 1st class examples, on the right). Imo the rightmost 1st class on the top row is wartime issue.

I thought I had posted this "group" scan before somewhere but realised it was done for some private correspondence a while ago. Thanks for the compliment Rick The Meck-Schwerin MVK is one of my favourite EK1 equivalents.

Regards

Mike

Reverse...

Hi,

Top left is a 57er, middle right is probably 20s/30s. The Meybauer screwback is probably 20s (maybe 30s). The other 3 pinbacks are imo wartime.

Regards

Mike K

Hi Rick,

Not one I'd want. The pin appears to be Meybauer but the reverse profile of the wreath tie/bow looks like a Juncker - an obverse pic would be nice to confirm this. Shallow crown well I also don't like. I'll leave the engraving alone - the same "blocky" style is known on some fakes though.

Regards

Mike

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the additional info. The rust would probably explain most of the obverse "features". For me, the hinge and fit of the pin are still very strange. Any chance there's a repair/replacement there?

Regards

Mike

Mike,

Are you thinking, artificial patina(chemically applied)?

No, it's not really the patina which makes me question it, although from the reverse it does not look like silver as I think I can see a yellowish basemetal bleeding through in patches. The patina is also fairly even. I do have a question over the black finish of the core (the green circle) as there may be a rough remnant finish under a thin black overcoat (or the core is steel and light rust is present under the finish to cause rust "bubbling" - which would be a positive sign).

Initial gut reaction, in the absence of further info (Tony, please prove me wrong), was "casting" - based on ?pitting and poor detail as highlighted in red. The rounded inner courners are also unusual - they show either slightly misaligned frames or a casting seam. That hinge is imo simply not right though - and it does not appear repaired.

Regards

Mike

Hi Tony,

Could you provide some more information please. Is the cross one-piece or 3-piece? If one-piece, how heavy.

My gut feeling on seeing the reverse hardware was not positive. Very unusual hinge and imo a strange pin, which is not a good fit for the hinge either. There also appears to be some unusual pitting to the obverse and some missing detail to the crown and top left corner of the beading.

Regards

Mike

Hi Chris,

Brilliant display!!

Are all the "backdrop" items battlefield ground dug? There look to be some seriously large chunks of metal there (the ?polished ones) - any idea what they are from? I'm think you've finally found a GOOD use for barbed wire!!

Good job you've made the bullets inert - they don't exactly look stable!

Regards

Mike