Mike K

Brian,

That is all very interesting. But what makes you so sure one type is good and one type is bad?

How can you be sure?

Best...

Mike

Hi Mike,

That good Juncker type is the only type I personally have seen with any direct German veteran provenance. Imo that type is rock solid good. Of course it's been faked and there are some good castings in curculation so care still needs to be taken.

Regards

Mike

AaargHa!

Any chance of a shot of the back of the cross? Maybe with a digicam? Seems like you hit converted EK1 paydirt at the MAX!

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Greg, I personally have no idea who made any of the blued core types at this stage. I have three distinct blued-core types in my collection - maybe one other style but hard to say with wear. I've never seen a maker marked one. Only some with silver content, either 930 (and Micha's 800) on the above type, and 800 or SILBER marked on the other types.

Regards

Mike

Hi Joe,

Is that a flat cross? If so, any indications of conversion on the reverse? I don't think I've seen a flat screwback before!

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike,

how many different stampings on these EKs do you know? I've got a "800" and this "930",but I know there are some with "935".......

Micha

Hi Micha,

I only have three examples with this type of core. Two of those have reverse hardware like the one at the top of the thread. Only one is marked though, that's my 930.

Regards

Mike

Hi Micha,

Nice "pumpkin" crown with "spoon-bill" pin blued-core example!

Dan, I also have one like this (a much more worn example though) and it's also stamped 930.

Regards

Mike

Do you know why there are two spellings? Do you think this is a red flag?

Karl Pollath

Carl Poellath

Hi Gunther,

There are many threads dedicated to the whys and wherefores of the two different spellings. I have a non-military item which uses "Carl Poellath" and "Carl P?llath" (note the C in the second spelling and not the K found on flight badges)! As far as I know, both variations you've mentioned are accepted on Bavarian flight badges (but the mark does not go close to Id'ing a genuine example)!

In the POLLATH version though, there SHOULD be an umlat over the O.

For what it's worth, they are still in existence and have been contacted in the past by other members to try and resolve the issure, without 100% success though. Here's a link to their current website;

http://www.poellath.de/index.htm

Regards

Mike

Hi,

I'll put in my two bob's worth - this is one that I would not buy for two main reasons;

1) the shape of the crown well, where the hinge is placed &

2) the spider-patina which looks like artificial aging.

I can't make out umlats over the O in Pollath either, but that may only be the images.

Regards

Mike

Reverse...

Hi Joe,

That's a very nice conversion. Great story as well!

I only have one. They've cut/ground off the crown and date before adding a hinge/pin/catch assembly, which is set on small plates. Subsequently touched up with black paint. Your's looks much neater!

Regards

Mike

Hi Micha,

I'll be a bit less tactful than David. When I saw your thread, I immediately thought "hluder" (OK, I forgot the d). I'd already been over all current their EK1 offerings. Imo all are extremely suspect to say the least - in reality probably high-end repros. I've seen their offerings in the past and already reached that conclusion - one seller to avoid but the crosses will be dangerous when they are finally onsold. Notice that some of the cores are exactly the same but the reverse hardware is radically different. Some wierd markings, etc, as well. All the crosses are "off" for want of a better description - gut feeling is sending out alarm bells!

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Chris' guess is as good as any. Obvious not German!

English spellings and concepts.

Culture = pig

Diplomacy = mule

Probably would have hurt if dropped from a plane as well!!

Regards

Mike

Hi Bill,

Looking at that marking, it's really hard to say - compounded because it appears to be a slight double stamping. For me the second image still seems to show a 3/4 "8" rather than a 9. The 1/2 "0" on the right seems to indicate that the stamp/punch was deteriorating - chipping on both the left and right edges of the imo "800" marking.

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Micha, I have one example with the same hinge/pin/catch as yours - it is a definite - fully formed - "800" mark. Imo, your example is also an "800" - the lower left of the stamp is missing though.

This particular core has to be one of THE most widely distributed core of any Prussian 1914EK1. Did all you guys get "Clayton's" adds on TV (?80s - for the drink)? This core is imo the "Clayton's" core - the core you have when you don't have a core! I have 8 different variants which utilise this core. Imo, one of the bigger firms made it and widely distributed it.

Re "Deutscher Offiziersverein" marked EKs, I agree, they were almost certainly privately purchased and their distributor, in this case the German Officer's Association, imo marked them with their own organisation.

I definitely agree that KO were not the only official award pieces. I've seen it written a few times recently that "KO" was the ONLY offically awarded type - I'd love to know where that rubbish came from!

Regards

Mike

A link to a scan...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~datumgeo/8xta...1-obv-x250a.jpg

Hi Scott,

To me the eagle looks like a good fit into the handle - seems pretty firmly in place and the eagle is fairly flush with the wood. If it had been replaced, I would have expected something more in the way of damage at the edges of the recessed area.

I can't comment on the difference in eagles (I have no other reference) but I'd be surprised if there was only one type of eagle in use. Did Herder only use one type of eagle on their earlier SAs?

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Erich, the colours of the illustrations are fairly well reproduced (on my screen anyway!). In the hand, the Naval-SA daggers appear to be true black on the illustrations.

sdp, hopefully this old scan helps. For what it's worth, I have previously tried acetone (VERY carefully) to see if the gilt could be removed - it did not come off. Some of the really dark brown between the arms of the swas was easily removed with a blunt toothpick. I guess it was a waxy substance. Fire-gilt was underneath.

Regards

Mike

and secondly Naval SA.

I hope these may be of some use.

Don't shoot the messager - I'm a badge guy!

Regards

Mike

OK.

I have a series of pages from the old "World War II" magazine published in the early 1970s. The pages are acompliation of a translated extract from the "Organisationsbuch der NSDAP", translated by a Susanne Flatauer. Of interest are the accompanying colour plates. I can not find out if these are from the original Organisationsbuch or were drawn up for the article but I thought they may be of interest.

First up, NSKK....

Hi,

I've been meaning to add to this thread for a while now. The only dagger remaining in my collection is one that was sold to me as an SA-Marine (obverse scan below). It came out of a big Melbourne collection that was split up in the late 80s. The handle is exceptionally dark brown (it appears to have been originally stained this way, not painted) and the scabbard has an old an very neatly done black overpaint (standard SA brown is underneath). Note that the eagle is fire-gilded. Traces of yellow on the fittings (the crossguards are a matching pair) - may only be laquer remains though. Fyi, it's a F. Herder (crossed keys) and "Nrh" gruppe marked. Make of ot what you will - no-one has been able to tell me what it is.

The main reason for contributing will be in the next two post.

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Imo it's a genuine but worn KO example - the most common of the wartime flat-backs. Almost certainly polished and possibly had the core re-blackened (not gloss-painted of course).

Good luck bidding on the auction!

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Dan, normally I'd agree that the institution of the LdO would be the time most of the Shinkels and Ubergross and brass core EK1s stopped, but regarding this particular Shinkel cross, I personally do not believe that the dies survived almost 2 years into the war (personal belief that I've held for years). I think that almost as soon as wartime produciton started to ramp up (ie not straight away in September 1939 but probably after the fall of France in 1940), the frame die failed.

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Nice example Micha. This type can come with roundwire or squarewire catch.

Scott & Steve, imo this is a later 30s example. There is significant flawing on the beading (12, 3 and 9 o'clock arms), indicating die-cracking. My early 39 Schinkel has the same type of flaws, therefore imo this example was produced at around the same time. The same dies would have been used for both 1914 and Schinkel 39 examples. Imo one reason that there aren't that many of this type of Schinkel around is that the dies for the frame broke beyond repair very early in WW2.

Regards

Mike

Hi,

Dan, you are right, I should have written "...post-war or private purchase".

I was not thinking of Godet when I wrote about prong alteration however, I was thinking of a fanged Meybauer in my collection which imo has had the prongs added later. I agree re fanged Godets, every one I have seen I would say was done in the shop.

Regards

Mike

Hi Gordon,

They look good together!

Re the theory, I have heard that flat crosses in general were the award pieces, however I would not be surprised to hear that at least some vaulted examples were also award peices (or it would immediately make almost every Meybauer post-war).

Personally, I'd put the "fangs" (I guess term that does sound better than zweihacken!) straight into the private purchase (or private alteration) category, regardless of whether the cross was flat or vaulted. If they came from the maker, imo they would have been a special order.

I do not think the different Godet cores can be used to differentiate award v's private purchase either.

Regards

Mike

Hi Brian,

Personally I do not think so. They are still as rare (imo rare, not scarce) as they were a week ago and their desirability for me has always been in the hardware (and rarity), not the maker.

Regards

Mike

PS: my remark above re the price rise of the KM EK2s was more flippant than anything else (give a greedy dealer an inch.....). I see no real reason for them to rise above what they are selling for now, as they are not easy to find anyway.