James Clark

Here's an example of a post mark commemorating the return fo the Legion Condor to Hamburg. There are others but this is the only one I have. The small box at the bottom says "Alwin G?rtner Hamburg" but there is no other writing or markings on the postcard.

If the original photo si that bad no clue.

What is equally intriguing is that he appears to be wearing

contrary to all regulations and sense

the ribbon for a SUDETENLAND ANNEXATION MEDAL ribbon under the KVK2(X) in his buttonhole!!!

I've managed to replace the full picture with a better scan, but can't do any better on the ribbon bar. The Sudetenland medal ribbon at the button hole is certainly unusual. But the other thing that attracted me to this picture was the blob above the eagle emblems on the long service ribbons. I'm pretty sure that this is the 40 year oak-leaves device being worn above and between the two eagles rather than below the first eagle.

This is the best I can get of the bar. After the 1914-18 cross I see a ribbon of one light colour (light blue? yellow?) then a light ribbon with two darker stripes (red stripes on white?). Any ideas? The final three ribbons are the WWI commemorative medals of Hungary, Austria and Bulgaria (in that order).

Hello

I'm really stuck on what the two ribbons between the 1914-18 cross and the long service awards might be on this man's ribbon bar.

Hello ,

Here is a picture of a woman named " Ilse D. " wearing the EK II and a ribbon bar for 5 or 6 medals , a well decorated woman ! This picture was found in the newspaper K?LNISCHE ILLUSTRIERTE ZEITUNG . DATED 3. August 1944 .

If you like a better picture let me know and I could email it to you !

Best Regards,

Joe

This is DRK-Schwesternhelferin Ilse Daub - thanks for posting Joe, and I'd be really grateful if you could e-mail me a copy of the page!

these pictures are too small to make

any real evaluation.

maybe enlarge and one picture per post?

These are effectively thumbnails - you get a bigger version by clicking on them

I find prices for miniatures quite difficult, but from what I can find, a miniature SS-DA would be up to Euro 150, a next of kin cross around Euro 20, and a RAO Euro 95. I don't know how much a nice gilt chain like that would cost, if you could find one. So I wouldn't be surprised if a dealer priced this at around Euro 300.

Some further information to add to this list. An annex to the regulations for the Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 states that, while the award was basically for men, it could n be awarded to women in exceptional circumstances when the woman had made a significany contribution to the bringing the Sudetenland back within the Reich or had suffered for this, for example by being imprisoned.

I haven't yet seen any evidence of such an award.

These chains were worn was on the left jacket lapel with the highest ranking award at the top. This means the order they are mounted is the reverse of what you would find on a ribbon bar or medal bar, which has the highest ranked award on the left hand side as you look at it. The order of precedence is therefore correct - RAO higest, followed by 1914-18 cross, then a long service award.

Regarding the next of kin award, if someone was entitled to this as well as the combatant or non-combatant version, they were supposed to decide which one they wanted and apply for only one of them. So they could decide to have the next of kin award rather than the combatant or non-combatant award.

I can't tell whether the medals are genuine but I don't see anything to suggest that they aren't. I don't know how likely it is that the group belongs together. But they are correctly mounted. The group is worth what you are prepared to pay for it.

I notice that there is no Reichsn?hrstand emblem at the bottom of the gold version, and it doesn't look like it's on the imprint inside the lid of the case. Have these been removed to de-nazify the award? The picture in Niemann's cataloge shows that the imprint on the inside of the case lid is the same as the reverse of the plaque, including the symbol at the bottom, as with your silver version.

I don't know anything about this award and have never seen a miniature.

Hello Alexandre.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2096...mp;#entry200570

This link has a number of photo's to female EK2 winners.

Regards...Henry

It also has information about how the awards were earned.

The following expands on the above list taken from Klietmann's book:

Numbers 1-13 - these are taken from press announcements as awards were made. Ilse Daub was the 27th woman to be awarded the EKII (in spring 1944).

Number 14 - the award to Else Grossmann was reported in a army newspaper in January 1945. It mentions the award as being the EK1 but this seems to be wrong.

Numbers 15-19 (Grafenkamp to Schlotterbeck) are recorded on an award list of the Festungskommandant of Breslau (the list is in the Bundesarchiv).

Number 20 - Halm herself said in a newspaper article dating from 1956 that she was awarded the EKII in Breslau.

Number 21 - Ottilie Stephan received the award according to a report by SS-Kriegsberichter M. Struve

Numbers 22-27 - These awards are referred to in press articles dating from March 1945

Number 28 - Frau Dr. Lemke didn't receive the award: according to a manuscript belonging to former RAD-F?hrer Pauli she was asked to bring some EKs from the Reichskanzlei on 26 April 1945. It is not known who received these awards, but they included 3 F?hrerinnen of the RADwJ.

Number 29 - the memoirs of Leon Degrelle refer to a Belgien nurse being awarded the EK for service in the front line ("Linie Dienst" isn't a name).

Also, you have a very nice, original first class that you show in the first post. Compare the this with what you have been offered and you'll see that there is no comparison in the quality.

Well, it's a neck decoration, not a breast star. And the star looks gold coloured rather than silver. So it's not even an attempt to produce what was originally described. Very poor.

The answer to this is quite interesting. The following details are from the book Staatlich-Zivile Auszeichnungen, Weimarer Republik und Drittes Reich by Dr. Kurt-G. Klietmann (Motorbuch Verlag, 1990).

The German Red Cross first considered introducing a new award in April 1922. The commission responsible produced a statute which envisaged an award in two classes (1st and 2nd class) but also made provision for a special award in exceptional cases. This was to consist of the 1st class mounted on a silver star, which was to be worn on the left breast. This was approved in June 1922 but the new award was not actually instituted until 1924. The statute for the award, published in February 1924, was the same as the one drawn up by the commission and approved in April 1922 except that it did not include the section refering to a silver breast-star.

Detlev Niemann confirms this in his catalogue with the remark that "The Breast-star to the 1st class was announced in 1922 before the official institution of the award, but it was not introduced. There is as yet no evidence that this grade was awarded or that samples of it were manufactured".

So it would seem right to consider a 1922 model breast-star a fantasy award, since it was never instituted and there is no evidence that it was ever manufactured or awarded. The breast-star was eventually introduced when the award was modified in 1934 and it was retained in 1937.

I pretty much agree, although I'm very sceptical about no. 1 and don't really like no.7.

However, no.3 is interesting: unless I'm not seeing the picture of the reverse properly, it looks like it's not a typical 3-tab bar (which is what it looks like at first glance). Is that a single hole in the middle or a rivet head?

Great - thanks for that Eddie. I think the last question I have is: which ships formed the German contribution to the international non-intervention force? The Deutschland (and I suppose the other larger surface vessels) did, since Germany withdrew after the Deutschland was bombed. The T-Flottille appears to have operated in supporte of these vessels so possibly did too. I'm pretty sure that the U-Boats didn't!

You guys might be interested in the latest "Neuerscheinungen" listed on J?rg Kalies' site (www.sammler-cabinett.de) which has a document group to a sailor which includes the Prussian Rettungsmedaille am Bande and also a very interesting ribbon bar.

I couldn't honestly say that I remember whether it was German or English. But I'm sure it listed some U-Boats and possibly destroyers. Good info in the T-Flottille, for which thanks!

James

Thanks Eddie

I'd found this site as well but the one I'm thinking of (and it may have been a response on a forum somewhere) listed the vessels involved and had a few more of the lesser ships in addition to the more well-known Deutschland, Graf Spee etc.

The Bronze grade of the Ostvolk Decoration was NEVER given to German nationals.

'Nuff said.

Correct. Plus which the way the ribbons are sewn up and the pin attachment are typical of made up medal bars. I wouldn't even say that the medals themselves were original in this particular case, although it may just be the photograph.

I could have sworn that I came across a website somewhere that listed German naval vessels that played a part in the Spanish Civil War. But I can't find it now. Does anyone know what I'm talking about or did I dream it?

Thanks very much for this information Humberto. The number is written on the back of a photo of a sailor wearing the Zerst?rerkriegsabzeichen but I didn't think that would help tie him to the FPN in any way - just goes to show!

James

I'm with Dave on this one. These brown cases, whatever the colour lining, were for the KVK. Quite apart from the fact that KVKs fit in them perfectly and EKs don't there was a specific listing of the types of cases to be used for each award for LDO pieces. This was published by the LDO in "Uniformen Markt" and listed the appropriate case colours ( these are the Halbetui type without press stud).

Black for EK II, Brown for KVK, Blue for Loyal Service Decoration and some others, Grey for Luftschutz and so on. So the colour of the case is definitely significant and an EK should not be in a brown case but a black one.

Very nice cases anyway. I'd rather have these than the EK version.

I think this is interesting and highly significant information. It should be publicised more widely, if only to stop people cramming EKII into the wrong boxes and damaging them in the process (which I have seen).

Does anyone have any information about Fpn M.14891? All I know about the timeframe is that the document I'm looking at is later than June 1941.

Many thanks,

James