ostprussenmann_new

Hello,

I am trying to to help identify an individual from 3D SAI, 1st South African Brigade, 9th (Scottish) Division

Was a Sergeant, wounded once, Was a Signal and musketry instructor.
 

Awards: Ribbon bar - Military Medal, Queens South Africa Medal, Natal Native Rebellion Medal, WWI 1914-1915 Medal

I think it may be, but not for sure.  

Possible - Second Boer War Geoffrey Watkin Williams In Kimberly Volunteer Regiment

I can’t find a name on any roster for the Natal Medal.

Wwi - Geoffrey Watkin WILLIAMS

3rd SAI, C Coy for Recommended for the DCM for his conduct at Delville Wood, awarded Military Medal. On the 20th July, he commanded a strong point in Princes Street and showed a great determination and coolness in handling his men under fire.

Any help would be appreciated.

thanks

2 hours ago, SillyOldGrandad said:

What seems a bit odd to me is that the button in the image bears the post-1953 Queen's Crown. As an Old Contemptible he would be around 60 years old by then.  Pete.

I have another grouping where a Captain who was awarded a medal was 50 years old when awarded the medal and there is documentation to support the statement.  I think age might be a smaller thing.  Compared to the US forces; I have seen brits having weird ages for ranks in some capacities.  Right now at my job there is a 51 year old RN Commander serving in a LNO job.  He was just promoted last year and has been in for 35 years.

On 14/11/2019 at 22:49, Gunner 1 said:

Peter monohan wrote: "BTW, officers were not given service numbers before 1920.  And I think an officer's serial should be 6 digits, not 5 [and 8 for ORs]."

Actually officers serial numbers after 1920 ('P' numbers) went from single digit to six digits. 'P1' was the serial number of EC Lloyd.

I appreciate everyone’s responses.  Then what is that number?  I looked over the tunic more and brought it to a recent show  and there was no belief that anything was fake.

I also asked about the holes in the collar next to the exploding bomb and it was explained he could have been in another unit before going to royal artillery.  The ribbons bars have been there a while because I cut stitching on the middle of the ribbon bar and there is discoloration.

the two options given to me this past weekend 1) was that it was put together in the 60s-80 or 2) it is perfectly legit.  Too bad there is no name in it.  No one could explain the number but it was put in a place in the inner pocket just as the Germans put there’s and could be an identification number.

i am lost.  I guess I need to try to look at some rolls of post 1945 or retired officers with that medal rack and try to tie a few options as previously mentioned.

i have another nice grouping for an MBE winner who went from private to Captain.  Started in the royal artillery and won a M.M. As a private in WWI and in 1946 was give an MBE.

at this point what a shame because it is a really nice uniform.

This tag was found in the tunic:  assuming service number

1 hour ago, Wessel Gordon said:

Top row: rightmost ribbon: 1939-1945 Star;

Bottom row, left ribbon: Africa Star;

Bottom row: second from left Ribbon: Italy Star

Bottom row: third from left ribbon: Defense Medal

Bottom row: rightmost ribbon: War Medal 1939-1945

Start with the link below and work your way up. You'll see the ribbon corresponds till it gets to the uppermost right on the top row.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Medal_1939–1945

Kind regards,

Wessel Gordon

 

 

 

 

I can supply pictures of all 9 ''British campaign medals'' from my collection if you want but in practice the most awarded was 6 with clasps for the other three if the soldier served in all the theaters covered by the 9 campaign stars.

 

 

Weasel thanks for your response.
 

the first ribbon is the military cross and the second is the General Service medal with palm for being mentioned in dispatches.

 Is there anyway to put a name to identify who wore this ribbon bar?

WW2 MEDAL RIBBON BAR. MILITARY CROSS , G.S.M WITH M.I.D & WW2 MEDALS .  
 

It is supposedly from a Royal Engineers Grouping

Any additional information would help if Ribbon Bar is identified.  
 

It is part of my 11yr olds Son’s Bday present and I don’t know much about UK Militaria

thanks in advance 

Royal Artillery (WWI and WWII) Vet

I am looking to see if someone can put a name to this ribbon bar...

Royal Artillery Colonel from WWII who was Great War Veteran

1) Military Cross w/ Rosette (2x)

2) 1914 Mons Star w/ Rosette (not 1914-1915 Mons Star)

3) British War Medal (WWI)

4) WWI Victory Medal 

5) 1945 Defense Medal

6) War Medal 1939-1945

7) Efficiency Medal 

Thanks for any help.  Any additional information would be welcomed.

As previously stated, neither the Afghan Medal nor the Iraq medal will not be awarded to US Soldiers.  Grandpa Jo got one, some very senior leaders, and some troops present  did within the US (like 15 total). Iraq is in such turmoil as is Afghanistan, and of it is ever authorized those who served will get it when we are old and crusty.

Congrats.  That is wonderful.

19 hours ago, Bayern said:

Ostprussenmann , I think that 922f is in the correct path, the Order of Malta is a more suitable explanation.

Bayern, I looked up the award and it definitely looks to be correct.  I think 922f is defining right.  So I wonder if there is A role out there with Italian roles.  I tried looking for a rank list and could not find it. Do you know of a website out there that may have list of Italian WWii Generals out there?

thanks

15 hours ago, 922F said:

Suspect, given other Order grades, that St. Joseph type ribbon intended to represent Sovereign Order of Malta –   Ordine pro Merito Melitensi, Commander Cross with Swords .  See Orders of Knighthood, Awards and the Holy See, by H.E. Cardinale and Peter Bander-van Duren, 3rd ed. 1985.

Bayern, thanks for the information.  Do you think that the guy is researchable like I suspect?

I saw this interesting Ribbon bar.  I know that the officer is a WW2 Italian Air Force Engineer Officer.

I was able to identify the all of the ribbons:

ROW 1: Medal for Military Valor (Silver Star), Order of St. Maurice and St. Lazarus (3d Class Commander), Order of the Crown of Italy (Commander)

ROW 2:  Silver Officer's Service Cross (16 years), Order of Saint Joseph(Commander) ,Cross for Military Valor

ROW 3:  The Cross for War Merit, Commemorative Medal for Military Operations in East Africa (Ethiopia)[1935/36], 1940-43 Campaign Medal (3 stars = 3 years)

What I find interesting is that an Army Long Service Medal and a very rare Order of St. Joseph (Commander), which means he was knighted from Tuscany.

Can anyone help?  If this is in the wrong section, I apologize.

If anyone has access to NARA files or anything on him it would be appreciated.  The only that I know is that he earned a DKiG at a different rank from someone at another forum who has a tunic of his.  I have a EKII document of his.  I didn’t think much of it until he brought up since I have had the document for some years now.  I didn’t even know he was a DKiG winner.

thanks in advance.

4 hours ago, Claudius said:

Or a thin coating of Gun Oil.  Its been used for decades by owners of very expensive guns to keep the metal parts from rusting.

Yup great catch.  That definitely will work also.

I would leave them as is, however, in order to neutralize further metal corrosion I would take Vaseline and rub a light coat over the metal.  This will stop the metal from getting worse.  

On 06/06/2018 at 16:28, SemperParatus said:

Here is a template for you to mail an information request (which I have used successfully - in my case they pointed me to the locale comune (municipality) whose archive held the information I needed):

 

*****************

Mailing Address:

Centro Documentale di Caserta
Viale Douhet 1
81100 CASERTA CE
ITALY

*****************

A sample template in Italian for a full request should be :

Centro Documentale di (ADD CITY NAME)
Esercito Italiano
(ADDRESS OF THE DOCUMENTATION CENTER)

Egregi signori,
il sottoscritto (YOUR NAME), residente in (YOUR ADDRESS), nella qualità di discendente diretto, richiede il rilascio di copia (dello stato di servizio FOR OFFICERS, OR del foglio matricolare FOR OTHER RANKS, CHOSE THE PROPER ONE) di (NAME OF THE RELATIVE), nato il (BIRTH DATE) a (NAME OF THE BIRTH TOWN) provincia di (NAME OF THE DISTRICT), che ha prestato servizio nel (NAME OF THE UNIT) durante la (NAME OF CONFLICT ie Primera Guerra Mondiale OR Seconda Guerra Mondiale).

Cordiali Saluti
(YOUR NAME, ADDRESS AND SIGNATURE)

************
Translation in english :
Dear sirs,
the requestant (YOUR NAME), living in (YOUR ADDRESS), as a direct relative, requests a copy of (the "stato di servizio" FOR OFFICERS, OR the "foglio matricolare" FOR OTHER RANKS, CHOSE THE PEOPER ONE) " of (NAME OF THE RELATIVE). born on (BIRTH DATE) in (NAME OF THE BIRTH TOWN) district of (NAME OF THE DISTRICT), who served in the (NAME OF THE UNIT) during (NAME OF CONFLICT ie. World War 1 or World War 2).

 

 

INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS with your return address in your letter!

Thank you so much.  I really appreciate this.  I am definitely going to request the records.

Great research.  I definitely do not think either of those two were him.

4 hours ago, SemperParatus said:

Here is a template for you to mail an information request (which I have used successfully - in my case they pointed me to the locale comune (municipality) whose archive held the information I needed):

 

*****************

Mailing Address:

Centro Documentale di Caserta
Viale Douhet 1
81100 CASERTA CE
ITALY

*****************

A sample template in Italian for a full request should be :

Centro Documentale di (ADD CITY NAME)
Esercito Italiano
(ADDRESS OF THE DOCUMENTATION CENTER)

Egregi signori,
il sottoscritto (YOUR NAME), residente in (YOUR ADDRESS), nella qualità di discendente diretto, richiede il rilascio di copia (dello stato di servizio FOR OFFICERS, OR del foglio matricolare FOR OTHER RANKS, CHOSE THE PROPER ONE) di (NAME OF THE RELATIVE), nato il (BIRTH DATE) a (NAME OF THE BIRTH TOWN) provincia di (NAME OF THE DISTRICT), che ha prestato servizio nel (NAME OF THE UNIT) durante la (NAME OF CONFLICT ie Primera Guerra Mondiale OR Seconda Guerra Mondiale).

Cordiali Saluti
(YOUR NAME, ADDRESS AND SIGNATURE)

************
Translation in english :
Dear sirs,
the requestant (YOUR NAME), living in (YOUR ADDRESS), as a direct relative, requests a copy of (the "stato di servizio" FOR OFFICERS, OR the "foglio matricolare" FOR OTHER RANKS, CHOSE THE PEOPER ONE) " of (NAME OF THE RELATIVE). born on (BIRTH DATE) in (NAME OF THE BIRTH TOWN) district of (NAME OF THE DISTRICT), who served in the (NAME OF THE UNIT) during (NAME OF CONFLICT ie. World War 1 or World War 2).

 

 

INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS with your return address in your letter!

Thank you so much.  I really appreciate this.  I am definitely going to request the records.

4 hours ago, SemperParatus said:

I'm happy to help. I've done a lot of research from Canada on my Italian great grandfather and grandfather who fought in WW1 and WW2 respectively as well as their brothers, with barely being able to speak the language. It's taken me years but I more or less have their entire service history. I'm at work right now but will be happy to provide you with wh8ch archives to contact in Italy for help on this. 

As for the 7th Infantry... The Italian army had compulsory military service, and to help forge a national identity (modern Italy was confederated in the 1860s) typically filled line regiments with men from two different regions, gave the brigade a name of a region and then headquartered it an a different region from both it's name and from where the men were from. For example my great-grandfather from Molise was in the Parma Brigade and stationed in Genoa. The powers that be thought that would help their countrymen stop thinking as regional peoples (Calabrian, Genovese, etc) and start thinking as Italians. 

(In my personal opinion, units with regional or local identities have a higher esprit de corps and perhaps this explained some of Italys poor reputation on the battlefield... But I digress) 

Due to the above reasons I found it very difficult to find out where my relatives served but I eventually accomplished it, so there's hope for you yet. 

I really appreciate your knowledge on all of this again.  Do you think that it would be worth writing Italy to get his records?  I do know definitely he is from San Germano.  I think we could narrow it down if the 7th Regiment was from around that Region of the 7th Reg.  It would be cool if this was him if I could get a copy of the Citation and photo in Uniform the buy the medal and make a nice display.

4 hours ago, SemperParatus said:

This doesn't exactly make sense. If he immigrated to the USA in 1912 then he would have been processed at Ellis Island in 1912, not 5 years later when the US entered the war in 1917. Furthermore he would not have been interned due to the war since he was from an Allied country. Remember, the Kingdom of Italy fought on the Allied side against the Austro-Hungarian Empire and to a lesser extent, the Germans. An American Expeditionary Force was sent to Italy in support and they took part in battles in 1918 together with their Italian allies. 

Well I think this makes more sense than anything.  The lady that I am speaking too, my Cousin is 87, so I think this is a difference between family hearsay and actual documentation.  I just got an email from her after I posted and she stated he came into the US from Canada through Detroit not Ellis’s Island.  I am going by everything she has stated to me and not by looking at actual documents, which she has copies of on top of my Grandma and father who have told me bits and pieces.  It would make sense.  Maybe he came to US in 1912 or 1913.  If I get copies of act documentation.  This is definitely getting more interesting and I don’t think there were many Eduardo Barberis’.  I may be wrong.  Any idea of where the 7th Infanterie was mustered out of?

Thanks so much for finding this information.  This seems like the same thing I went through with another family member on Mother’s side a couple of years ago.  All of the family stories were nothing like what I found out from hard facts through documentation.  This seems to be the case here.  If you find out anything else please let me know!like rank or such.   I definitely owe you one here.

20 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello , You are in the good direction , tell me if i can be of some help 

I have been looking through the gazette and cannot find anything..  I may need your help.  I am just trying to search them from 1879-1910 for his name.

12 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello , Normally ,the Familiar misteries were not so misterious or unsolvable .Good Luck and Avanti!

So I just called my great aunt again last night and brought up the weirdness of being 1879 and WWII.  Come to find out after looking through her family records, he served prior to WWI and immigrated to the US in 1912 as things heated up in Europe and was in the US during WWI and actually was interned when they hit Ellis Island for a month or so.  I suppose things make a little more sense now.  

58 minutes ago, Bayern said:

Hello , My pleasure , An interesting point ,the birthdate ,year 1879 , so when Italy entered in ww2 he was on his 60 years old . and you said that his rank was lieutenant a low rank for the age .inclusive for a reservist called to duty. try with these : Tenente Edoardo Barberis Gazzetta Ufficiale del regno de Italia. you wil discharge a Pdf  in Italian . If you dont read Italian , well someone of your family perhaps can .The Gazzetta is the official bulletin where all  and i remark all about the Italian Army Navy and Air Force was published between 1860 and 1946

Bayern,  Thank you again.  These are all family stories, so maybe this will shed some light to the family mystery.

I appreciate the help.  If I do find out anything I will be sure to post for everyone’s knowledge.

also the other posting about the Italian WWII Officer; I provided some more details.

Thanks again

Either 08 or 09 Aug 1879 for birthdate.

Most likely birthplace was San Germano, Vercelli, Piemonte, Italy (This was the best guess)

16 hours ago, Bayern said:

I suggests you to look at :camera - wiki . org /wiki /Fairchild 

I looked there before posting.  Also wrote the Photo Heritage Museum in Virginia, Smithsonian, and SAC Museum.  Thanks though.