David Gregory

Christophe,

A wonderful group which seems to belong to a Landsturm man from Hamburg!

In post #3 the shoulder strap seems to show battalion number 29. Can you read the corps district number in roman numerals?

Do you have any indications of which Landsturm unit(s) he served with?

David

Stogie,

An interesting trench picture indeed. Images of rifle grenades being fired from stands to hold the rifle sell for very high prices on German eBay.

Trench images tend to be expensive in any case. A postcard showing a group of men with hand grenades and cudgels sold for just over EUR 100 today in auction #6241636149. I think I have an example of the same card which cost me a couple of Marks at a flea market a few years back.

David

Paul,

A basic knowledge of German is essential if you want to be able to read stuff like this. The more documents you have, the easier it becomes. I have reached the point where I have started compiling a database of the documents I have because I simply cannot keep track of them any more.

Even if you only ever acquire a few document groups such as this and do your best to find out something about the people that they once belonged to, you will begin to understand what all those otherwise anonymous pieces of shiny metal and enamel really represent.

The gongs are certainly nice to have, but the people that earned them are the reason why I collect militaria.

Cheers,

David

I know what you mean, Chris.

In my youth I used to make quite passable models and enjoyed detailing and modifying them. I have solved the space problem in my old age by keeping the kits I have bought in recent years in their boxes.

One day ..... I'll have enough time to build some of them.

Very nice comparison and an unusual and interesting core/frame combination.

I think I need to find a decent scanner and spend even more time at the computer!

Paul,

The order in which the images are posted is not chronological, so I will comment on the various scans in the order in which the entries were probably made to provide a sensible narrative, rather than leaping back and forth in time.

Post #13 shows in section 6 that he had already served from October 1899. Although it is not apparent from the entries shown, he probably did two years of service as a normal recruit with a line regiment and left some time in 1901. He was recalled in August 1914 and joined RIR 230 a week later. The unit responsible for him for replacement purposes during the war was the replacement battalion of F?silier-Regiment 73, as can be seen on the right. If at any time he was wounded or transferred out of a front-line unit, he would have been assigned to this unit.

In post #7, the entries on pages 10 and 11 refer to a 14-day exercise that he attended in 1906. This will have been while he was on reserve status, so there may be other entries relating to his pre-war service with another regiment, probably F?silier-Regiment 38. A further clue to this unit will be the entry referring to which unit he joined when first inducted (usually at the bottom of the first page with any entries in the book containing his personal details) and also visible as a tiny squiggle added above section 6 on page 2 of the Milit?rpass.

The page pasted in below these refer to his induction on 25 August 1914 when he joined the replacement battalion of IR 157 shortly after mobilisation. Since he was already a trained soldier, he was assigned to I. Bataillon of RIR 230 a week later. The staff of RIR 230 was raised from the 1st battalion and replacement batallion of IR 157 in Brieg, which explains the stamps from IR 157. Approximately 50 % of the men used to form the regiment had previous military service. Your man was one of them.

Post #10 shows that he served with 2nd replacement battalion of F?silier-Regiment 73 from the end of January 1915 to June 1915. The gap in his service record between the end of August 1914 and January 1915, when he was transferred to the replacement batallion of FR 73, suggests that he was probably wounded or injured in January or the period immediately before that, when he might have spent time in hospital or with a convalescent unit.

Post #9 covers the period from June 1915 to September 1916 when he was assigned to the 2nd replacement battalion of F?silier-Regiment 73. The entries on these pages also indicate that he was promoted to Gefreiter in September 1914 and Unteroffizier in June 1915.

Post #11 shows that he served with recruit depot no. 1 of 2nd replacement battalion of F?silier-Regiment 73 from mid September to late October 1916, when he was transferred to the recruit depot of 50. Reserve-Division.

The image in post #8 leaps ahead to when he was assigned to 12. Kompagnie of RIR 230 in September 1917. Just over a year later, he was assigned to 10. Kompagnie. In the meantime he had been promoted to Sergeant in what looks like March 1918. He was awarded the EK2 on 15 April 1918 and the wound badge in black on 22 June 1918, as is also evidenced by the relevant award documents.

The other details on the page refer to the battles and engagements in which he was involved.

Post #12 shows that he was briefly assigned to 3. Kompagnie of RIR 230 before being discharged to his home town Steinau three weeks later.

The entries in post #14 refer to vaccine injections, pay and holiday spent at home. These are typical entries to be found in a Soldbuch, but they sometimes also appear in a Millt?rpass or ?berweisungsnationale.

What you have is an almost seamless record of one man's service throughout WW1 and his award documents, which can only be topped by having his Soldbuch, too. I collect groups like these when I can find them, although most of my documents are Milit?rp?sse. I am slowly compiling overviews of the divisions of the Imperial German army from 1914-18 and already have a draft overview for 50. Reserve-Division. I'll see if I can finish it soon and add it to the others I already have online at http://www.militaerpass.net/inf_div.htm

Cheers,

David

"As far as I am aware, these pieces are deemed to be good. I was told that unused stocks of crosses without swords were modified by having swords added to them ca. 1916 so that they could be issued to meet rising demand as the war progressed."

Hello again:

This is an excellent point and something that I was not aware of. But it leads me to a question. Why then is the badge not made of gold since it is of pre-1916 Godet stock without swords, which was modified in 1916 with swords? The piece in the group is obviously a silver-gilt badge judging from the photo (I would understand a gold badge with silver-gilt swords).

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

Hi Schie?platzmeister,

The same point has been raised before. I'm afraid I cannot answer that as I simply do not know. I have one which has been given tacit approval by a few members here and elsewhere and the two others that I have seen in hand were identical, except for wear. According to the dealer and seller, two others that were sold in the last year on a German dealer site and eBay.de, respectively, were also the same. However, I can only go by what the sellers told me when I asked about them.

Whether the 1916 date is precise or merely educated speculation remains to be answered by someone with more experience of them.

Together with some other HHOXs mentioned earlier in the thread, it was shown at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2613&hl=HHOX&st=160

Sorry to confuse matters, but that is all I have on this cross with its rivetted swords.

I suspect Andreas (medalnet) might be able to shed some more light on this.

As far as the suspect bar above is concerned, what is the clash between the W?rttemberg cross and the Red Eagle Order and/or Centenary medal, or is Stogieman referring to something else?

David

and finally the Kit issue Document...well thats what i think it is...

corrections are welcome!

Paul,

You have a very nice little group. The last document you show is his discharge paper indicating that he received a demob suit, jacket, trousers, coat, tie, a pair of shoes, a shirt and underpants when he left the army in November 1918.

Any kit issued to him would have been detailed in his Soldbuch, though many seem to lack the pasted-in pre-printed sheets that were used as issue forms.

Post some of the pages which have entries added to them and we can see exactly what he got up to.

RIR 230 was part of 50. Reserve-Division and involved in fighting in the Somme, specifically the crossing on the River Ancre near Albert, when he was awarded his iron cross in April 1918.

David

The HHO w/ swords has the sword parts RIVITED to the wreaths. Wagner pieces were not done this way, nor were those made by other manufacturers during and immediately after WWI (as far as I am aware).

As far as I am aware, these pieces are deemed to be good. I was told that unused stocks of crosses without swords were modified by having swords added to them ca. 1916 so that they could be issued to meet rising demand as the war progressed.

Theodor,

Your can looks very good to me and the photo is excellent.

David

Steve,

Without having seen what else you have, you seem to have the beginning of a very nice collection.

I have always understood the 800 mark to be an indication of the silver content, rather than a manufacturer code. Like one I have, the CD marked cross seems to have a finely cast core.

David

Ed,

Just an appreciative comment from someone who knows next to nothing about these items. Please don't get the impression that a lack of comments means that no one else is interested, but I want to avoid just making "WOW" remarks on every thread I see.

Please show us more as you find the time.

Many thanks,

David

Hi Wild Card,

Thanks for the reply and your PM, both of which are highly appreciated.

Even if that represents just a part of your collection, I wish I had your self-discipline in maintaining focus on any aspect of Imperial militaria. Unfortunately, temptation rears its ugly head more often than my financial resources will realistically allow.

Best wishes,

David

Looks like basic training, then out to the 2 battery of MFA 232 which was in the wilhelmshaven area and then in '45 in for what seems to be officers training.

One entry i haven't seen thus far though. Under religion it says gottgl. what would that be?

Doug,

You have a nice little group. I find it interesting that a man from land-locked Bavaria spent the entire war with a navy unit in the Wilhelmshaven area. I spent a year at the university in W?rzburg, which is a beautiful city. By a coincidence, I recently received a complete WW1 document group of awards, award documents, Milit?rpass and Soldbuch to a Bavarian who served with naval artillery units in the north of Germany, the Somme and Flanders

Simon,

gottgl. is an abbreviation for gottgl?ubig, which he meas that he believed in God, but didn't commit himself to a particular religious demonination.

David

Wild Card,

While purely academic considering the budget I allow myself for collecting purposes, this is a fascinating insight into the way that "accepted standards" evolved over the course of time and as court jewellers changed.

For many more frequently awarded items, such differences often give cause for concern. With such rare items as these, I would hope that the precise numbers and types are more carefully documented.

Judging by what you have shown us here and elsewhere, I understand your concern about keeping much of your collection locked safely away. You are lucky to have several examples of rare awards of which many other collectors simply aspire to obtain one piece for their humble collections.

Without wishing to dilute the subject matter of this thread too much, do you also have examples of award documents for these or other awards that show how the documents evolved and varied?

Many thanks,

David

The Battle of Delville Wood started in earnest on 15 July 1917 when the South African Brigade was tasked to attack following a heavy artillery barrage. They managed to clear the southern edge of Germans, but were withdrawn on 19 July after having lost more than 700 men. The fighting continued in poor weather for more than a month before the wood was finally taken on 25 August, the day after Ramminger was killed.

His company was still holding its part of the front-line trench on the day he died. The approximate situation of a week earlier is shown by this map taken from the regimental history.

Today the wood and nearby memorial is looked after by the South African Government. Delville Wood Cemetery contains 5,493 burials. Almost two-third of these are unknown.

[attachmentid=22252]

Other "good stuff" includes:

A dodgy Anhalt pin-back cross:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6567563171

Navy wound badge:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6567573643

Colonial elephant badge:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6567560917

Imperial pilot's badges:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6567564430

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6579374736

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6585812327

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6585848833

MGSs badge:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6568931482

Navy pilot's badge:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6567570245

Oak leaves to the Knoght's Cross:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6579373297

1870 EK1:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6585815532

Imperial submarine badge - the sew-on version (???):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6585808179

Tank destruction strip:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=6586047498

That seller starts all his auctions at $9.99 and doesn't claim originality in his descriptions. And he seems to have had a stock of PlMs.

Caveat emptor!

That might not be a huge poster, but it is still a tangible reminder of what the consequences of war meant to the family.

This postcard was sent to Vizefeldwebel Klohn (spelling?) of 10. Kompagnie, IR 75, 17. Infanterie-Division on 14 December 1915, just before Christmas. Unfortunately it never reached its intended recipient and was stamped "Zur?ck - Auf dem Felde der Ehre gefallen".

The death card shown below lacks the typical Iron Cross motif, but the circumstances of Vizefeldwebel der Reserve Bruno Ramminger's death will provide some perspective for British readers. Born on 11 June 1897, Ramminger, like many other men of Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 119, was a native of W?rttemberg. He was a volunteer and on the way to becoming an officer, had served for two years and had been awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class.

He was killed by a shot to the head (or so the family was led to believe) in Delville Wood on 24 August 1916. The regimental history describes the day's events as follows:

With untiring effort, the front-line trench had been fully cleared again on 24 August and could be defended.

The enemy was working hard on his positions, too.

At 4:15 p.m., the front-line trench and the area behind it was hit by a heavy barrage of all calibers, also by heavy trench mortars; Flers was under heavy fire. At 5:10 p.m. the entire sector held by the regiment was under fire, everything was surrounded by smoke and dust. When the enemy shifted the barrage slightly to the rear at around 5:45 p.m., weak infantry fire could be heard in Delville Wood. The sectors held by 5. and 7. Kompagnie were hit by the heaviest fire of all calibers with an intensity hitherto unknown, and reported this at 6:20 p.m.; at the same time, strong movements and groups of British were identified opposite 5. Kompagnie/GR 119 and the left wing of IR 121. Our screening barrage was launched at once. The enemy barrage rose to hurricane strength by 6:35 p.m. The situation on the regiment's left wing (7. Kompagnie/GR 119) became critical at 6:50 p.m. when the neighbouring troops on the left avoided the barrage by pulling back. At the same moment that the enemy moved his barrage back from our front-line trench, the waiting enemy infantry stormed forwards as the first red flares rose above the regiment's and its neighbour's sectors. The German defensive barrage increased to its greatest intensity. But the hordes of attacking enemy succeeded in penetrating the completely levelled sector held by 5. Kompagnie and the left wing of IR 121 after defeating the trench garrison, which had been depleted and defeated by the strong barrage. The enemy immediately turned to roll up our position and advanced along the front-line trench. Our men there were either dead or wounded or had been buried. The last defenders assembled on the left flank of 7. Kompagnie desperately resisted the enemy. By this time, all of the telephone lines leading to the front had long been destroyed. Any information could only be received from runners or returning wounded who managed to pass through the enemy barrage, which surrounded everything in smoke. 35 enemy aircraft were seen circling above our positions.

The regiment ordered an immediate counterattack to be launched. Under the dedicated leadership of Leutnant der Reserve Issler and despite heavy losses, 3. Kompagnie worked its way forwards into and along Grenadier trench through the still very heavy barrage at around 7:30 p.m. The company succeeded in approaching to within 150 metres of Delville Wood and in preventig the British from advancing any further; Issler was wounded during this.

In the meantime, the also depleted 8. Kompagnie had been involved in bitter fighting in its trench since 6:30 p.m. Together with the remnants of 7. Kompagnie, it drove back the enemy on its right flank from one traverse to another. At around 9:30 p.m., artillery activity was still very heavy on both sides. 7., 8. and 6. Kompagnien had their trenches in Delville Wood; together with the remnants of 6. Kompagnie, 7. Kompagnie had turned the right flank back. 2. Kompagnie was also brought into the front line in the evening; at the same time, it brought urgently needed rifle ammunition and hand grenades, but lost its experienced commander Leutnant der Reserve Schmidlin. 1. Kompagnie/GR 119 also soon arrived to secure the unguarded right wing. Two companies of IR 88 that were assigned to IR 121 were ordered to close the gap between GR 119 and IR 121 at around 10:40 p.m.

John,

I can't offer any explanation as to how and when the engravings were added, but these items really are significant and unique pieces of aviation history.

Genuine aviation badges can be obtained almost immediately if you are prepared to pay the price a good dealer asks, but one-of-a-kind items such as these probably remain in collections for a long time.

Thanks for showing them.

David

Christian,

I have one like this and a green/white one on a triangular backing plate. I have always assumed they are for (former) Prussian and Saxon veterans associations.

David

Jan,

Good tips. The expression you are looking for is "colour temperture".

David

Sal,

Very nice! Although I stopped actively pursuing TR stuff some time ago, and have never really been into LC items, I am a sucker for nice awards accompanied by their documents.

I find quite a lot of nice and affordable Imperial documents on German eBay and am constantly astonished at the number of people who dispose of items that really did belong to members of their families.

As in your case, it often only becomes apparent when you are able to compare the name on the documents with the seller's name. I think it is a little sad that so many people have no interest in their family's history, but I am happy to look after the items for them.

Was this the only award and document the family had or do they have other documents, photos, letters, etc.?

David

Hi Ed,

I am sure I posted this information before Christmas, but the thread seems to have been deleted.

I can't find any reference to 17. Reserve-Division, which had its own Pionier elements, namely 4. Kompagnie Pionier-Bataillon 9 and, later in the war, Pionier-Kompagnie 340 and Minenwerfer-Kompagnie 217, but Pionier-Kompagnie 268 was a part of IX. Reserve-Korps.

From some time in 1917, Pionier-Kompagnie 268 was part of 211. Infanterie-Division according to "Ruhmeshalle unserer alten Armee".

David

I've got one without the spout and with a maker mark on the handle-retaining bracket that reads:

SUDD. METALLW. FBK

MUSSBACH

It is also unit marked to JR 32 (IR 32).

Somewhere (probably in the cellar) I have a couple with spouts, but I don't recall them having any maker or unit marks.

Field equipment is alarmingly addictive, but I seem to have my habit under control, although I have must have 4 or 5 mess tin sets, one of which was made by WMF in 1918.