David Gregory

Chuck,

Thanks for posting that. What strikes me is the similarity between the cog wheel used in the background to the cog wheel used to surround the swastika of DAF badges and documents.

Totalitarian regimes of the 20th century seem to have had much more in common than just their ideological extremes.

I look forward to seeing some of your Imperial documents.

David

Detlev Niemann had a bronze one with the case and outer carton for EUR 95 yesterday.

Funny, this expressions i would have understood. normaly i look up difficult vocabulary in my dictionary. but at the moment i can't find the dam... book.

anyway, living is learning and my english needs a permanent brush-up.

so gents it's up to me to say thank you for lesson.

haynau

For a quick online look-up try http://dict.leo.org/

PS: later on you can explain prong/eyelet ... to me

haynau,

That trifold ribbon is very nice.

A prong is a word that usually describes part of a fork (Zinke einer Gabel), but in this case it means the end of the wire hook. Eyelet = ?se.

David

Hinrik,

As someone who would very much like to acquire a representative collection of deactivated pieces such as yours, I can only wonder what else you have that is not shown above. After all, you did begin with "Some of my aircraft MGs".

Unfortunately, legal constraints, and a lack of funds and storage space, will probably mean that I have to stick to simple things like paperwork.

As a teenager I used to visit known aircraft crash sites to look for souvenirs. I usually found lots of broken plexiglass panels, mangled sections of airframe and ruptured .50 cal cases. The only piece I still have is an inspection cover with an American manufacturer's plate from a Liberator crash site in the UK. Its engines were still buried deep in the earth at the site 20 years ago.

Aviation archaeology seems to be very popular in Holland, which probably became the resting place of many bombers that never made it home. Here in Germany, most sites have been picked clean and there seems to be some unpleasant rivalry between certain groups that are obsessed with recovering as much as possible and then selling off what they don't need.

What are the legal aspects of aviation archaeology in Iceland? Can you dig on any land if the owner gives you permission? Who keeps the pieces found and what has to be reported to the police, etc.?

As a museum curator, you seem to enjoy certain privileges. I would also be interested in hearing how easy it is for a normal collector to obtain and own deactivated pieces such as those you show above. The law seems to have been relaxed slightly in the last year as far as deactivated hardware is concerned here in Germany and I believe it is now possible to own complete deactivated machine guns. Previously, it was illegal to assemble them.

Finally, how do you find out about the crash sites and can you show any images of a typical recovery operation including the "hike" to bring the finds back to civilisation?

Thanks in advance,

David

Was the Thuringian War Cross strictly a military decoration?

If I recall correctly, Nimmergut lists it as a military award, but the only example I have suggests that it was certainly issued to non-combattant. I posted my bar and the pinback version at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1201&hl=gotha

The very nice example above is also the first one I have ever seen on a ribbon bar and indicates that it was also awarded to combattants. From the order the ribbons are mounted, I would guess that the wearer was a Bavarian who served in or with units from Th?ringen.

Can anyone else show an example of the Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha award?

The A7V on display at the museum in Munster is a replica built between 1897 and 1990 using drawings provided by Universit?t der Bundeswehr in Hamburg. The only surviving A7V is 506 "Mephisto", which can be seen at the Queensland Museum in Brisbane, Australia. This was also used to provide information for the reconstruction of the Munster vehicle, which differs in some details from the tank down under.

The image below was removed from an album (I would love to have seen or obtained the rest of it) and shows vehicle number 507 "Cyklop" on the move. This vehicle is reported to have been scrapped by the Allies in 1919 (http://www.answers.com/topic/a7v):

[attachmentid=18669]

Jason,

This is great stuff and I would love to more if there is any.

I would like to visit my Great-Grandfathers grave, which is probably only his name on a memorial, but I am still not sure whether he is remembered in Jerusalem or Gaza, as two men with exactly the same names, but having different service numbers and from different regiments, died there within a week of each other. When I have found the information I need, I would like to visit his grave/memorial in 2007, 90 years after he was killed. As far as I know, no other member of the family has been before.

If his grave/memorial is in Jerusalem, then it should be fairly easy and safe to do. If he is remembered or buried in Gaza, I might wait a few years until things have quietened down there.

In the mean time, images such as the ones you are showing are fascinating and prompt me to find out more about my Great-Grandfather and the time he spent in Palestine.

David

I have an example in bronze with the award document and a steel version mounted on a bar that can be seen at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1201&hl=gotha

Hi Ulsterman,

Milit?rp?sse are my favourite subject and that is a nice example with an uncommon award entry. Is there a list of battles and engagements that was pasted onto one page or sewn into the document?

Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 457 was part of 236. Infanterie-Division and he probably saw action at Arras and in Champagne and Flanders, where he was captured.

The dotted lines are the parts that I find illegible at this resolution. The "telegram" style is typical for such entries. The document is quite likely a Zweitschrift (duplicate) filled in and given to him when he was discharged.

Pages 8 and 9:

Served from 16.1.17 to 9.10.18 with this company and was wounded on 16.6.17 by a shell splinter to left nostril and transferred to main dressing station of Sanit?ts-Kompagnie 248.

Transferred to light-wounded attachment in B..... on 17.6.17.

Wounded in left foot (?) by infantry round on 18.4.18 and sent to main dressing station of Sanit?ts-Kompagnie 248.

20.4.18 sent to light-wounded attachment in D......

24.4.-15.6.18 .............. (looks like a hospital) Brussels

14.8.18 (north/east/south/west?) of Schloss Langhof near Ypres wounded in the right hand by a shell splinter and transferred to Sanit?ts-Kompagnie 248

15.8.18 sent to the field ...............................

Taken prisoner on 9.10.18

EK2 9.7.18

Lipp. Verd. Kreuz 30.10.17

Battles:

Conduct: good

Disciplinary measures/punishments: none

The dates on the second page seem to be slightly contradictory, i.e. he seems to have been in a transit camp in Mannheim months after he was discharged. This must be some sort of clerical error, or I can't read the dates properly.

Pages 10 and 11:

Wietbrock returned from captivity and was assigned to Dulag (Durchgangslager = transit camp) Mannheim

10.12.19 4. Kompagnie Infanterie-Regiment 158 and was discharged to Sonneborn, Detmold Military District on 26.9.19

Received 50 Marks discharge pay and a demob suit

David

Some people should not be allowed to handle militaria. Take a look at the Anhalt cross offered here.

We have a photo in the archives of a fellow strolling down the steps of a church after his wedding and he's wearing both "classes" of the AFK... will try and dig this out tonight.

That is an image I would very much like to see.

Jason,

Great stuff! Do please post the WW1 material referred to above.

Most of my family heirlooms seem to have been lost before I was born. One of my Great-Grandfathers was killed in action at the Second Battle of Gaza in April 1917. I look forward to seeing the Palestine material.

Many thanks in advance.

David

George,

Another (relatively) obscure aspect of military history with a personal connection - terrific!

Look forward to seeing more of your family's past.

David

Paul,

At the risk of straying off-topic, here is an example of a man whose Milit?rpass shows that not every wound automatically resulted in a wound badge being awarded. This is not the Milit?rpass that I refer to above.

Friedrich Ewald was born in Neuhof in the district of Blankenburg in the Duchy of Braunschweig on 2 February 1896. He was working as a servant when he was inducted into the 1st Recruit Depot of the 2nd Replacement Battalion of Infanterie-Regiment 77 as a replacement recruit on 29 November 1915 (90 years and one week ago).

He was trained on the Gewehr 98 and passed through a number of units before finally joining the Field Recruit Depot of 20. Infanterie-Division in the field in May 1916. A month later he joined Braunschweigisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 92 and saw action with 6. Kompagnie and 4. Kompagnie on the Eastern and Western Fronts from late June 1916. During this period he was also involved in fighting on the Aisne or as part of the Aisne-Champagne fighting. While with the regiment he also attended a course for the Sturmtrupp of 20. Infanterie-Division. This was a unit of specialist assault troops whose job was to train candidates in modern fighting techniques to be used in battalion and regimental assault teams. From this training course entry and the battles entered into his Milit?rpass, I think it is highly likely that he saw some heavy action.

He was first wounded in his right lower leg by a hand grenade near Autr?ches (this name needs to be checked, as Milit?rpass entries did not always feature correct spellings of foreign place names) at the end of January 1917. He was transferred to Sanit?ts-Kompagnie 24, and rejoined his unit on 11 February 1917.

In March 1917 he attended a 2-week trench mortar course.

His next wound was sustained from a shell splinter to his left lower arm near Cerny on 26 April 1917. This wound must have been more serious, as he was sent to a reserve hospital in Germany a few days later.

By early August, he was sufficiently recovered to be sent to 111. Infanterie-Division and then to 50. Reserve-Division in the field. In early October 1917 he joined 9. Kompagnie of Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 229 in Flanders.

In May 1918 he was wounded in the elbow by a machine gun round while fighting on the Ancre, but remained with his unit. After being promoted for bravery in the face of the enemy in mid August 1918, he was wounded in both hands at the beginning of October 1918 and was transferred to convalescent and replacement units while in various hospitals in Germany. He was formally discharged with 50 Marks discharge pay and 3 Marks march expenses one day after leaving hospital in May 1919.

The final discharge entry in his Milit?rpass is dated 23 August 1919 and records that he received no awards, displayed good conduct and had not fallen foul of the military justice system during his 3 1/2 years in service.

This and the other example I refer to above are good examples of men who obviously saw a lot of action and were wounded several times, but received nothing by the time they were discharged soon after the end of the war. There is a fairly good chance that they received a wound badge much later, as some wound badge award documents were not issued until as late as 1940 for wounds sustained between 1914 and 1918. It is also possible that they received an EK2 that was not recorded in their papers, but it seems to me that many post-war award entries are to more senior NCOs of junior officers than enlsited men.

I apologise for wandering off-topic, but the post is at least related to the wound stripes as shown above. I'll post some scans and comments in a separate thread when I find the relevant documents and can pursuade my scanner to do its job.

David

That is strange... I would have thought that these wound medals would have pretty much been an automatic award... kinda like our Purple Heart is in the US.

Do you have that Milpass posted here on the forum somewhere?

Regards

Paul

Paul,

Unfortunately, I have not. It is one of about 350 for which I only have index cards with basic details entered on them. I am adding all their essential details, and those of a lot of award documents, to a simple Access database because I simply cannot find them when I want to.

Using my existing highly efficient "pieces of paper with notes scrawled on them" system that lives on my desk (and the floor when it gets knocked off), I have flagged this for scanning and posting when I get to it.

The wound badge only appeared in mid 1918, so many awards were only bestowed many years later, and not always entered into the Milit?rpass, as some document groups prove.

David

I have a Milit?rpass to a soldier who, according to the entries in the booklet, was wounded six times and promoted once for bravery in the face of the enemy. There are no award entries - nada, zilch, nothing - although the entries are complete until 1919.

Perhaps he received a wound badge or even an EK2 a few years later, but not everyone who saw dangerous front-line service was necessarily showered with awards.

Tom,

If you got this, congratulations. I had also seen it but decided not to go for it as it was not strictly a military award (which is a criterion I try to apply to my collecting).

The language used in the telegram text is somewhat antiquated and I am not entirely certain that something might be missing at the end. That being said, it reads approximately as follows:

I have just learned to my great and sincere pleasure that Your Excellency has been awarded the Iron Cross and kindly ask you to accept my warmest congratulations on this award, which is so unusual outside civil servant circles. I not only see in this Cross the longest due acknowledgement of Your Excellency?s high personal merit, but, in a certain sense, a rehabilitation of the unfortunately long-standing accusation.

The last bit really sounds a bit strange, but I can only conclude that his name had been tarnished with some sort of accusation or poor reputation, and that this award was regarded by the sender of the telegram as proof that his bad reputation was unjustified.

Without wishing to relegate the significance of an EK award document to a "common" soldier, which I rate very highly, this is certainly one of the rarer documents I have seen in some time.

David

Edit: I hate it when I have to leave the keyboard for a few minutes and someone else makes much the same reply in the meantime.

Well it looks like we can scratch the Milit?r-Sanit?ts-Kreuz off for the red and white ribbon. It appears as if that one is supposed to appear on a red ribbon with wider silver stripes.

Just to confuse matters, the Milit?r-Sanit?ts-Kreuz was also awarded on the same ribbon as for the Hessen Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen for front-line medics.

I know that Chris Boonzaier found a source for good, but not cheap, archival sleeves in the UK last year. Perhaps he can post the address of the supplier.

Does anyone else know of other suppliers in Europe?

How do you store your really large documents, e.g. German, Italian, Yugoslav and Bulgarian documents that are sometimes larger than A3? At the moment I use artwork folders made of acid-free stock, but they are very large and the documents tend to slide around inside them, which is not good for corners, etc.

These are terrific! Nothing I can add except encouragement: more, more please!

Ditto, more please.

Bob,

I am flattered that you asked me this question, as I am sure there are many others who are much better informed about them than I.

From my limited knowledge, I would say that it looks like the type made by Eduard Foehr. Characteristic for this manufacturer were the fixed connection arrangement between the swords and the arm of the cross and the round suspension eye, which is sewn down on the example you show.

David

According to Tessin:

Sturzkampfgeschwader 51: Peacetime base (only III. Gruppe) was Wertheim. (Stab, I. and II. had become Stab, I. and II./StG 77 before the war; III./51 was also assigned to this Geschwader).

Gruppe III./51 became II./Sturkampfgeschwader 1 in autumn 1940 (not until winter 1941/42 according to the Feldpost number overview).

Deployed in Poland in 1939; still in the East in September and then transferred to Luftflotte 3 in the West.

I mentioned this earlier:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3810&hl=

Thanks ..that's a relief . The auction was closing and I didn't have time to properly research it ..so I had to toss the dice and go with my gut feeling. I paid $400 for it ...just so I can get a scale of 1 to 10 value/rarity ,what are they sellimg for today ?

Honestly ...I never paid any attention to the Imperial Orders / Awards until I came to this Forum SO ..IT's ALL YOUR FAULT, now look what you did ! Instead of bidding on Adolph's Mustache , I ended up with this ...I think the Mustache was RZM'd to boot , oh well

Mike,

For that price, you can allow yourself an irritatingly smug grin, safe in the knowledge that you did not pay too much.

David

P.S. Welcome to the highly addictive world of collecting Imperial militaria. You will probably soon start selling off your TR stuff to fund your new collection.