David Gregory

Brian,

Wonderful stuff and with a real story, to boot.

I like your eclectic collecting interests (framed photo in lower right of image in post #3).

/David

Bring it on, Ed.

Was it common for naval flyers to receive Luftwaffe badges?

Hi Bob,

Nice examples of home-made bars, of which I also have a couple. I really like these simple combinations of basic awards from more than one state. Is there any paperwork to go with it?

Particularly nice is the late-war Sachsen-Meiningen medal made of zinc. They also came in bronze and in other metals with a bronzed finish.

/David

Are the dates of the photos known?

Were they taken before the campaign ribbons were issued?

Darrel,

I have the following:

2 DRA bronze by Wernstein, non-magnetic

2 DRA silver by Wernstein, non-magnetic

DRA gold by Eugen Marcus, non-magnetic

DRL bronze without swastika, no maker, centre not cut out between the letters, non-magnetic

DRL bronze with swastika by Wernstein, magnetic

Tust this helps,

David

Bill,

I've just received a nice citation for a Croix de Guerre awarded in early 1915. I bought it on www.ebay.fr. There are always plenty of medals to be had there for a lot less than what the usual online dealers ask.

If I can coax my scanner into working, I'll post an image in a new thread.

/David

Claudio,

That is a fabulous group, brought to life by Rick's excellent research. Do you have any information regarding the award date of his Hessen cross? I have some documents to a Saxon NCO who also received the cross for front line service on the Western Front.

I also have some documents to men who fought in Macedonia and ended their service there after spending time in hospital at Uesk?b while being treated for malaria. Who knows, perhaps their paths crossed with Dr. Hansen's.

/David

Hi Guys,

If it any consolation to you, I have been getting timeouts on all sorts of sites today and the problem seems to be connected with DNS (name) servers.

It is surprising how much we take for granted when the Internet is just "there" and running fine.

/David

As a formality it is probably a good idea to enquire about a potential clash with parallel projects.

However, I would be most surprised if the various archives still in existence in Germany had the staff, remit or funding to make this sort of information available beyond holding it in the records they have for public view on application, let alone working on a similar project.

To my knowledge, Deutscher Offiziers-Bund, the original publisher of the Ehrenrangliste, no longer exists. Since Biblio have been selling a reprint of the Ehrenrangliste since 1987 and scans of regimental histories have been openly sold on eBay and elsewhere for a few years, it is extremely unlikely that any legal successors will come forward to raise any objections.

Mittler & Sohn, the original publisher of many of the rank lists, is still in business as Koehler/Mittler and could be approached about the question of rank lists.

In view of the fact that copyright by German law (Gesetz ?ber Urheberrecht und verwandte Schutzrechte (Urheberrechtsgesetz - UrhG)) expires 70 years after the death of the author and 50 years according to European Council Directive 93/98/EEC of 29 October 1993 http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUriSer...93L0098:EN:HTML there is very little to expect in real terms.

The fact that the CD is marked as number 1 of what I assume will be a series begs the question: What will be on CD 2 and when will it be available?

/David

Claudio,

The date gives me pause for thought. Germany mobilised for war on 1 August 1914, so I would be surprised if that were an award date, unless of course hostilities broke out on that day and he was awarded the EK1 on that date. I wonder when he received his EK2?

But being a member of the nobility, perhaps anything is possible. The 1914 rank list will show whether he was associated with VII. Armee-Korps.

/David

Rosenberg,

As I have no idea about the manufacturer's mark, I can't really comment on it. It is quite possible that it is real and the case was used for a set of fish knives or something similar.

With an item like this, the problem I believe is the issue of provenance. If the case has been with your family for a long time, I assume you can be reasonably sure of whether it has been part of a group since then or not.

Sadly, stories along the lines of "it belonged to an officer who was killed in action" frequently accompany both good and bad items, and as such should just be regarded as nothing but an interesting story. Whether they are true in the case of good items is also a moot point, as good items presented like this will always find a willing buyer.

If anyone who really knows cases and packages well can show you an authentic case like yours, then the story might even contain a grain of truth.

In the absence of provenance, preferably in the form of documented proof, my advice would be to forget the story, regardless of who told it to you, and evaluate the items alone. To another collector, what you have is worth the value of a DK, a close combat bar and an unknown case.

/David

Rosenberg,

If you consider the time slot of say five years in which combat awards of the Third Reich might have been presented in cases such as this (I deliberately ignore any post-war embellishments), and compare it to the last 80 to 100 years of German peacetime history, there were probably very many more cases made for jewelry and cutlery sets than for the few hundred or thousand top-level awards that wealthy German recipients would have purchased before May 1945.

Given the state of Germany towards the end of the war, the ravages of time and the stigma attached to the bent cross in the post-war period, I would not be surprised if less-than-scrupulous individuals actively looked for boxes like this at flea markets and house clearances to make up for a lack of award cases. I am sure they are being used to enhance Imperial awards, which I would expect to find in a case like this more often than 1939-45 items.

The box you show above might well have belonged to a KIA Leutnant as described. But as Marcus comments, the general shape and arrangement of the two items in it suggest that it might not originally have been made to contain them.

Whatever the box may have been, it is certainly a better method of presentation than just keeping awards in old shoe boxes.

/David

Although it looks as if it would suit a necklace or tiara as well as anything else, the case shown above is very similar in style to some private purchase items made for Imperial single awards and groups.

A collector here in Germany has suggested that there is a bit of a cottage industry creating these out of any old jewelry cases for the collector market.

The only one I have handled that has provenance from the recipient's family contained a four-piece medal bar, 1914 EK1, a privately made Turkish war medal and a matching ribbon bar. The case was marked to a jeweller in Cologne.

/David

Sam,

The bar seems fine to me. Many more or less "standard" combinations of two or three ribbons were produced in one piece to save time mounting them.

Besides this WW2 combination, you will typically also find them for the 1914 iron cross together with the ribbons of many of the common awards from the other Imperial German states.

/David

Jaques,

Looks like someone has a world domination plan for Spanish crosses.

I like your dedication to the LC.

/David

Rosenberg,

They turn up on German eBay quite regularly.

However, if you see any like those offered by eBay seller raritaetensammlerclub, then compare them carefully with known originals.

He is currently offering three crosses in auctions 6559091238, 6559091258 and 6206472674. I have not handled one of these crosses, but he rarely sells anything original, so I would condemn them by association.

There are threads referring to his awards at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1205...etensammlerclub and http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1073...etensammlerclub

Good luck,

David

The question is one which most collectors will ask themselves, but it really isn't easy to answer, as I have more than one item that could really tell a story if it could only talk.

Since I mainly collect Imperial documents and paperwork, which by definition are eminently researchable, my single anonymous HHOX would probably be the one item that I would most like to know more about.

However, the other single awards and ribbon bars that I have accumulated as representative examples to match the documents in my care should not be relegated by my choice of the highest award for what was quite possibly an act of almost suicidal bravery.

One man I would like to have a conversation with is an anonymous member of Feld-Artillerie-Regiment 63. I have two photographs of him. One is the standard Ausmarsch pose in uniform probably taken before he left for the front. The other shows him in the same uniform and still wearing his Pickelhaube somewhere on the front, but he looks physically exhausted, has visibly aged and his uniform looks the worse for wear. I wonder what happened to him in the time between when the two photos were taken.

A single EK2 or wound badge can be bought for pocket money today, but in most cases the stories they can tell have been lost forever.

/David

Tony,

Spiffy cross. Is that one I saw at Wewelsburg castle last year?

Cheers,

David

And a gallery of more detailed images can be seen at http://www.lieber-als.de/bg/index.html

The items could easily have been used to produce a fairly standard work on Imperial orders. The collection must have taken years and a great deal of money to acquire.

I cannot even begin to imagine what effect this must have had on the owner.

Spread the word and increase his chances of at least some of the items being recovered.

Brian,

If the items now in your care are not broken or missing, I don't believe they should be changed or altered in any way.

When absolutely necessary, I only ever advocate moderate cleaning and/or restoration by adding authentic period pieces to replace missing parts of a given medal bar or group.

While I appreciate your wish to preserve his legacy, I am sure there are better ways to do this than physically altering the artefacts you have come to own. Careful documentation by photographing, weighing and measuring the items you have inherited should be sufficient.

They seem to have withstood the ravages of history more or less untouched until now and I think they will do quite well for another few hundred years if looked after carefully.

Any of the changes or alterations you suggest above probably cannot be reversed. Whoever becomes the next custodian of these items will not be able to undo anything you do to them.

For the sake of posterity, if for no other reason, I would simply document them carefully and make sure nothing untoward happens to them.

/David

Rich,

Wartime and post-war slings for these items have been on offer here in Germany for many years. From various collectors and dealers, I have always undersood that canvas slings made of coarsely woven material are late-war pieces.

Does anyone have images of MG slings in use in North Africa and Italy?

/David

Rick,

As always, a good explanation of this frequently ignored type of document that usually sells for very little on eBay.

Although the seller of the one shown in post #1 has some interesting items on offer, his descriptions and pricing defy belief.

Is he really so badly informed about what he sells?

/David

Hi Tom,

Thanks for that unequivocal statement. Pity someone got stung for so much.

Trust the weather is not too wild down your neck of the woods.

/David

As I normally only acquire medals and awards when they come with the requisite paperwork, or at least good examples to match the documents I have, I don't look for many pinback crosses.

To make sure that I am aware of what to avoid when something good does come along, I try to follow basic trends among the fakes.

Just to satisfy my curiosity (no I haven't got an 1870 EK1 award document (yet)), what do you all think of the cross shown at http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

From my badly informed point of view, it doesn't inspire confidence. Am I being overly cautious or is this one to run away from?

Thanks for your opinions in advance,

David