avsaribar

Below is an GODET Made TWM , please check the Tughras differences (Specially , where I tried to color , where it was written Mehmed and Han.)

with your AWS picture.

Terry , if you ask me how I understand that it is AWS ,

Let say we can not see the back , so we can not see the marks etc..

In this position , Not very easy to understand , but numerous TWM's I saw and sold.

First I am starting by the pen work under the enamels , then I am checking the form

of the star , last and most important , check the Tughra , for example , if you compare

Godet ones Tughras , they are more clear and proper then AWS ones. Even I can say that ,

Tugras on the AWS made wrong. Like the Steinheuer and Luck ones.. All wrong...

Specially as you know , the Tughra Mark on the TWM's are Sultan Mehmed Resad's Tughra.

On the part where it was written "MEHMED" ( I tried to mark with Green )on your picture and , where

it was written "HAN" (I tried to mark with Blue) is completely different then the Godet ones.

Please check your shoot of the below picture ( I mean the one without my Green and Blue lines) ,

The blue Lines are not continue properly , below I also paste a Godet Picture , which I found from

this forum. It's Tughra is Far different then your AWS.

Godet made both versions, and those do look like Godets. They are, aren't they?

The one which Mr.Terry has above is an AWS.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Terry ,

I mentioned to you that , the name on the certificate is "MUSTAFA AGA" , and he was in the rank of "MULAZIM-I EVVEL" in Ottoman Language. Today it means Higher then leuthenant , like Captain. (Leuthenant was MULAZIM-I SANi )

His name was not "Evvel Mustafa Aga" he was "Mustafa Aga" .

)

And as I mentioned to you when you was in Istanbul , the one on the below , looks like a paw , is " Enver Pasha's " stamp. He was Minister of defence .We call it "Enver's paw"

Enjoy your certificate.

All the Best ,

Avsar Ibar

info@avsaribar.com

Dear Demir ,

Thank you very much for your rightful answer and nice information for the

Les's scornful question against our real " Super Hero ! " , first president and

foundr of our republic , Musatafa Kemal ATATURK .

This is not a political website , I do not want to extend the converstion but ,

As Mr.Demir mentioned , Ataturk wrote a new history for the world , especially

in the 1st and 2nd Inonu Wars , Gallipoli war and our Independence war.

He was always inside the battle together with our Grandfathers even Grandmothers...

He was shot during the Gallipoli war, on the Conk foothill in Gallipoli.

I also wish to add some more pictures of his Orders and Medals whish Mr.Demir

already mentioned.

Regards,

AVSAR IBAR

1 - He got his Silver Liyakat Medal on 1st September 1915 by Sultan Mehmed Resad while he was the comander of ANAFARTALAR.

2 - He got his Gold Liyakat Medal on 17 January 1916 by Sultan Mehmed Resad.

3 - He got his Silver Imtiyaz Medal on 30 April 1915 while he was 19th Division Commander.

4 - He got his Gold Imtiyaz Medal on 23 September 1917 By Sultan Resad.

5 - He got his 1st Class Medjidie Order with Sabers on 16 December 1917 because of his eclat.

6 - He got his 2nd Class Osmanie Order with Sabers on 1st Feburary 1916 because of his extreme

success on Caucasian front line battles.

7 - He got his Gallipoli Star , (War Medal) 11 May 1918 by Sultan Reshad , it was written on the back of his TWM , "Sr. Exc. M.K.P." (Mustafa Kemal Pasha) , and an interesting detail for forum members , it was J.H. Werner Berlin !

8 - He got his Independence war Medal , on 21 November 1923 ,by T.B.M.M. ( NATIONAL ASSEMBLY) BECAUSE HE SAVES ALL OF US , ALL THE TURKS on Rebuplic War.

As Mr.Demir Mentioned he had many more medals and orders ...

Dear Sirs ,

The only Ottoman (Turkish Made) ones are the painted ones as Mr.Demir mentioned.

All the other ones are made by foreign countries. The pink-red envelope was belong to the

Painted Turkish-Ottoman Made ones. Not BB.Co.

As I tried to mentioned before in some posts ;

Many Years we are also can not prove that BB.CO is in Germany.

But I bealive it BB.CO is a German Company also located

in Germany , if you ask me why , What I can say is ,

As we know War medal created in 1915 and Mustafa Kemal

Ataturk makes the Alphabet reform at The 1 November 1928

Till 1928 , all the medals , orders and badges which MADE in

Turkey has the Ottoman script on them. (I mean if they have any...)

(For example , there are many examples of the Medjidie Orders

which doesnt have any kind of Mint Mark but even has a small

stet mark on their reverse.)

Anyway what I observed and bealive is , only the Ottoman Orders and

medals which made in foreign countries such as Halley and

La Foyalle in Paris , has the Latin Scripts on them.

BB.CO is also made in Germany , many people says in Berlin...

It could be Private Company which was just doing for our Goverment

War Medals .

Sincere Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Ibar Jewellery and Antiques

http://www.avsaribar.com

info@avsaribar.com

Demir Bey Merhaba ,

Josef den aldiginiz degilde , yukarida o ilk post ettiginiz yildizin arkasindaki ignesinin uzerinde

yildiz seklinde bir damga varmi acaba ?

Cok saygilar ve selamlar ,

Avsar Ibar

In English ; Hello Mr.Demir

Is there a star mark on the first Star which you posted the pictures on the up ?

I do not mean the Godet one which you get from Josef.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Friends ,

If they will come to my shop , I will try to shoot their pictures and post them here.

(I mean the fake ones) , but you can be sure that , to understand the fake and original one

in Ottoman Orders are , very easy , not like such as in Imperial Russian or Soviet ones..

By the way , Dear Demir Bey

Merhaba , (Hello) , How are you ? If you will have time to come to Istanbul ,

It will be a pleasure for me to meet you again. Best Regards to Deniz Bey.

Could you please inform us this fake sellers name on ebay ? (to inform the buyers)

Sincere Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Avsar, what does this medal represent/ what was it awarded for/ what does "Fleet Donation" mean? regards

Dear Sir ,

The Turkish name of this medal is Donanma-i Iane Medal, when you translate it to English,

It becomes Fleet Donation Medal.

Because this medal was awarded in 1912 for the ones whom help to improve and renovate

the Ottoman Imperial Naval Forces. In that period the helps were made by giving the Government

Ottoman Golds , for example , the ones whom gave the government 10 to 25 Ottoman Golds , they got the Nickel Medal, 25 to 100 golds , get the Silver Fleet Donation Medal , whom helped 100 to 500 golds , they got the Gold Medal.

The ones whom awarded to the men , has a ribbon with green and white , the ones for women was the same collor but in a flower type ribbon.

When the owner of the medal died , it was automaticaly passes to the elder son or , if there is no son ,

it was passed to the elder doughter.

Also it was written that , the ones whom helped the government by giving land , buildings or any kind of valuable things, can deserve the medal.

Hope it helps ,,

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Friends ,

Below I am posting the picutres of the Donanma-i Iane (Fleet Donation Medal) which

I bought today... This one is the Rare one (After the Gold ones...) 28 mm Silver. (Large Size)

It has got 5 types...

25mm Copper

25mm Nikel

28mm Silver

28mm Gold

and 36mm golg.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Rick ,

Very , Very Nice bar , that oversize order of Medjidie style is one of my favorite style in all Medjidie Orders...

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Friends,

The above Liyakat was NOT German ,

yeah I saw many Silver , Gold Plated Silver , Gilt even 8 ct Gold (Low Degree Gold) ones.

But the one above was .750 Solid Gold .

Normally our mint used and still using .916 purity for the Gold Coins and Medals , except of some .585 and .750

Commerative medals.

But in Liyakat Medals ,the gold ones which made during the War period was different purity.

As I told you I saw and sold examples of 8ct , 18ct and 22ct . gold Liyakat Medals.

Sure All of them was Original...

Sincere Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Ibar Jewellery and Antiques

And The Gold Liyakat

Have Fun ,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Friends ,

Below I am pasting you the pictures of the Extreme Rare 3 GOLD medals ;

Medal Of Bosnia Gold

Medal Of Kurdistan Gold

Medal Of Liyakat Gold

Hello,

here are some more fakes on ebay I believe,

Item:330257648131

330257645719

330257651710

330257658947

and more from the same seller

Regards to all

Mahoni

Dear Mahoni ,

ALL THOSE 4 items which you listed their ebay item numbers are %100 FAKE , you are absolutly right ,

also the Medjidie order from the same seller Ebay item no : 330257655909 is fake.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Avsar,

Some useful information and viewable imageds avaiable. Yesterdays Baldwin's Islamic coin auction held in London www.baldwin.sh had a section of Ottoman material including some nasties. Lots 608, 610, 612 were sabresd Medjidies, all of them had dubious sabres and thankfully the were not sold. 634 was a large gold sultan's medal for Egypt. This was a cast (which is even clear from the image) and was withdrawn. Also 635 (as rare as rocking horse manure) a large silver, this was also wrong and with drawn (I know of one person who took time off work to view it and was deeply dissapointed). Also 684, gilt bronzeTeshrin-i-sani 1338 (war of independence). This was a wrongun and also withdrawn. What is god is that images are available and therefore can be compared (for real sabres compare M&E ANS 2 Oct. 2006.

All the best,

Paul

Dear Paul ,

Hello , How are you ? Yeah I know the Baldwins Auction , even I know the owner of those Ottoman Orders and Medals who put them to the auction.

Those sabres had really dubious as you said , you are %100 right. Even the real sabres which sold M and E ANS auction , were not the only

kind of swords that can be , I mean there are also some more variations for the sabres , those ones in Baldwins didnt seem to me original.

About 634 it was cast yes , the 635 , I can not understand from the picture.

Take care , All the best ,

Avsar Ibar

Thanks Rick ,

Very nice Order.

Cheers

Avsar Ibar

Dear Rick ,

It doesnt have Normal Enamel , you are right they use cold made plastic .

It is a new made fake , exactly made to fool the new collectors.

The order comes to me from one of my customer , he bought it like an

original from internet. Thanks god on the behalf of Ottoman collectors ,

there are not many fakes , i mean as I saw many , none of them was

good made fake such as Russian Orders. It is very easy to understand

the Ottoman - Turkish fakes.

As you know , except of some special made and gold versions , Osmanie

Orders doesnt have hallmarks or Mint and Master marks like Medjidie Orders.

This fake also doesnt have any hallmarks.

Can you post your Osmanie here ?

If you have any questions , I will be glad to answer ,

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Ibar Jewellery and Antiques

And now , I am postinmg you the photos of the Original One.

Please compare

the patina ,

the enamels ,

the colors of the enamels ,

the Gold inlaid in the red centre.

and etc...

Dear Friends ,

I am pasting you the pictures of a FAKE Order of Osmanie ,

If you have any questions you can ask me.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Sirs ,

That Tughra Stamp doesnt have any relation with or about the gold / gold content.

Cheers,

Avsar Ibar

PS: It is just a stamp , which only used in Silver items to prove the originalty and the period.

Dear josef,

Hope you don't mind my comment on this.

I believe the tughra mark above the Ottoman mint mark is an assay mark of the gold content used for the sabers which might explain seeing this mark on the orders with sabers,and it also helps identifying the period of the object.But at the same time it is worth mentioning that not all Turkish orders with sabers do have this mark.

Dear Mahoni ,

1 - Ottoman Empire never used Tughra Mark on the Gold items. (I am talking about Tughra Stamp , i mean , not medallions or Tughras such as the ones

you see in middle of the Medjidie Orders obverse)

2 - Those sabers are not gold , they are gold gilt.

3 - I saw many Tughra Marked Orders of Medjidie without Swords - Sabers.

Sincere Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Ibar Jewellery Orders & Medals

http://www.avsaribar.com

info@avsaribar.com

And Another Order of Medjidie 1st Class , With Original Period Swords , without Tughra Mark.

It is also a Standard Ottoman Made Type , Not like yours.

And , about Tughra Mark , last I want to tell you that , Tughra Marks are stamped

to mention the period of the Ottoman SILVER art's period. They mention in which

Sultan's period they made. Nearly all the silver stuffs of Ottoman Empire has the Tughra

Marks. Such as Silver Bottles , trays , Cups , Bowls ,candles, pitchers and else what you imagine

in silver.

I am pasting you a Tughra Marked Silver Candle which is made during Sultan 2nd AbdulHamid.

Also the Mint mark of the "Eagle Type" Medjidie orders are more smaller and thinner borders then the

other Ottoman Made medjidie Orders. You can compare your Order's mint mark with the below standard

Medjidie Order's mint mark.