Yankee

The reverse:

Hi Beau

Nice Albert, think however yours is a early 2nd type. Your reverse has the 2nd type shield & crown. The 1st type should have the crown being totally seperate fron the shield. The early shields are extremely well detailed.

Yankee

Thanks for the tip, Brian

/Mike

My Pleasure.

I too try to find as much info as possible on the Al Valore but it is difficult and I assume any decent book on the subject has not been translated. Any Italian experts/authors out there please suggest something???

Sincerely

Brian

During WWI had been awarded:

- 364 Gold Medals Al VALOR MILITARE

- 38.614 Silver Medals AL VALOR MILITARE

- 60.224 Bronze Medals AL VALOR MILITARE

Silver and Bronze medals cannot be "scarce" or "rare" becouse of such high numbers of awards !

Hi ilclifton

Thanks for pointing that out to me. IN the States they are not common. I suppose almost all are living in Italy. Interesting to note they were more issued then the Bavarian Bravery Medal & Saxon St.Henry combined ( estimate 11,000 ) & those do turn up. Just glade the Al Valore's have names....

I just received this medal today - an Italian Al Valore Militare. The inscription does look very 'home-made' but seems consistent with other pieces from the WWI period.

The medal has a mintmark (a crowned Z) for the Royal Mint, and according to our member Elmar Lang in this thread (GMIC thread) that would mean that it was made in the 1930-1940s? So is it a replacement?

Opinions are welcome... (I know the photo quality is not the best)

If genuine, it seems the inscription "Giacinto Zupelli - Sober, 11 ottobre 1916" refers to the 8th battle of Isonzo 9-12 October 1916 (Mt. Sober and Nova Vas).

And genuine or not, the little research I did regarding the battles of Isonzo was so fascinating (1.75 mio. casualties so I don't know if 'fascinating' is the right word...) that it made me order John R. Schindler's "Isonzo: The Forgotten Sacrifice of the Great War" from Amazon.

/Mike

Hi Mike

There is an excellent article in Medal News " Defending the Tirol" Dec 2005/Jan 2006. Some very fine groups pictured. You can order past issues for a few dollars. www.tokenpublishing.com . In the States difficult to come across books on the Italian Austrian conflict. Your right they are a fascinating read.

Sincerely

Brian

It has to be The Spainish Order of Charles lll, so you are right it would be the "Fleur De Lys" Strange the officer had not want to fix the badge

Sincerely

Yankee

Hi CCI

For what action was your medal given? I recall Liverpool has one too from 1918, maybe both to the same battle. They are rare, any idea the number awarded in WWl?

Sincerely

Yankee

I noticed this as well. In hand it looks better but its not the best quality for sure.

I am looking for the history behind the man who was awarded the one in my collection.

Hi CCI

As I understand there is no book as of yet that has a list of the holders and actions. As I recall from an excellent prior thread you can only get the info from the government and need to be a relative sad for us collectors

Order of the Iron Crown and what must be the generic War Medal of 1873. Notice that the SECOND foreign Order (one of the defunct Italian states?) has a Fleue-de0Lys broken off its left upper cross arms.

Hi Rick

Noticed that too, might be lions however. I don't think it is any of the Italian States, due to the use of a wreath above the cross instead of the usual crown. I'm thinking the third from right just might be the Order of the Redeemer from the Duchy of Mantua. If that is so truely an amazing bar.

I noticed too that the WWI issues have a crude inscription as if a little kid was doing his homework on. The examples from the mid 19th century are very fine as if they came from the mint itself. Any idea who inscribed the WWl issues and why not more skill taken into such a top bravery medal? Or was it up to the owners to inscribe their medals and have it done on the cheap...

Sincerely

Yankee

Anyone know what lives between the St.Anne & Leopold?

Hi Roman

Cool one

What a most interesting material used for the reverse. Is that jade or some stone? I too have one dedicated for that year ( in peace time ) but with inscription in center as usually found.

Sincerely

Yankee

Just an update for those who may be interested, Major Ludomir Tarkowski had a middle name of "Mieczyslaw", and was was born in 1897. Served in the 4th BAON. On May 25 1944 he was killed in action. Continuing to try to piece his life together, It seems the least I can do for someone who fell in action and who's decoration I hold in trust

Alex K

Edit Must be honest can't as yet decifer BAON, Any Help?

Hi Alex

As I understand Baon is translated from Austro-Hungarian Army to mean Battalion. Nice to see an orginal

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello Brian,

thank you for your kind words regarding my dad's war merits, although I went off the topic related to your original post.

Yes, I'm proud of my father and, since he died on October 26th, 2008, I'm feeling quite sad also. Ok, he was nearly 91 years old, but remained present and clearly thinking until his last moments: this helped us a lot, to accept what was happening.

Now, talking again about the "Al Valore" medals and to commemorate my dad's military past, I've tried here to translate into English the "Motivazione" of his Silver Medal for Military Valour; this text is always written on the medal's award document and is read in front of the troops while the medal is pinned to the recipient's uniform:

Lieutenant (Artillery) Ennio Calabresi:

"Commanding officer of a heavy anti-tank battery with the task to defend an important sector attacked by superior enemy armoured forces supported with strong artillery fire, he inflicted heavy loss to the enemy, forcing it to retreat a first time. Attacked again, and put under the direct fire of numerous enemy batteries that subsequently destroyed three of his guns and killed the majority of his gunners, being repeatedly wounded also himself, he intrepidly resisted, giving to the surviving soldiers his own faith and enthusiasm. When the chief-gunner of his last piece fell killed, he took his place, continuing the fire until the last surviving enemy tanks retreated behind their lines. An officer who distinguished himself on other occasions already, was again an example of the highest courage, to the limits of self-sacrifice. Bir el-Aslagh (Northern Africa), May 30^th, 1942" (note: the area of Bir el-Aslagh, not far from Bir Hakeim, had the british nickname of "Knightsbridge").

After the war (and more than 4 years as a P.O.W. in India), he continued his career in the Army and retired in 1976 with the rank of Lieutenant General (Generale di Divisione).

Each year, on May 30th, he remembered his soldiers and his enemies (of the British 22nd armoured brigade, if I correctly remember) fell on the field that day, by publishing an obituary announcement on a national newspaper.

As said, for the same action, he also received the Iron Cross 1st Class, given to him personally from Gen. Rommel.

Back to collecting, In Italy there are many, many collectors of these "Al Valore" medals. They're attractive and their design is fine. More, each piece is nearly unique, because of its naming. The best, is when a medal is found with the award document, that reports, besides the recipient's data, the "Motivazione" that is the detailed description of the act of gallantry.

Personally, I regret that even an Italian citizen, possessing one of such medals would find a "wall" set up from the authorities, making any archival research almost impossible, unless finding an employee at the archive of the Ministry of Defense, acting "beyond the call of duty"...

Sincerely,

Enzo Calabresi (Elmar Lang)

Hi Enzo

May I extend my condolences. Your father is a most remarkable man, certainly Rommel thought that too, to personally honor him with an award by his own hands. It must have been a very moving experience for your father to come into contact with one of the great military geniuses of the war. Never forgetting the past, remembering his men as well as the enemy on all the anniversaries. Many kind thanks for translating your dad's "motivazione" which I'm sure was not so easy. I was amazed to have read of your father's courage and not retreating under such heavy enemy pressure even when his wouds needed immediate medical attention. The Al-Valore must be equivalent to the Victoria Cross. Reason English medals are so popular is just amazing how much detailed research can be easily found. I suppose if that was the same case in your country there would be 1000% more collectors. All the best.

Sincerely

Brian

Hello,

actually, there is no reference where to finde the lists of recipients of Italy's Medal for Valour. There's a book, published in the '30s with the list of all those who received the Gold Medal for Valour, from its institution (1833) until 1918.

More difficult, is to find a list of the French recipients of the "Guerre d'Italie 1859" type: French authorities, simply obtained from Italy a number of unnamed medals that were awarded to French soldiers; then, the medals have been named in France.

All names (and details of the action) are recorded in the "Bollettino Ufficiale del Regno d'Italia", where all laws and decrees were published. As we can imagine, looking for names and lists is a titanic work, especially because the date engraved on the medal, usually isn't that of the award decree. For example, my (late) father did an act of bravery, as an anti-tank battery commander, on May 30th 1942, being proposed for the Silver "Al Valore Militare" medal. The actual award happened in 1952 only and it was published on the "Gazzetta Ufficiale" (republican heir of kingdom's "Bollettino") in that year, although his medal is engraved "Bir el-Aslagh (A.S.) 30 Maggio 1942". I understand that between the act of bravery and the award, there was the retreat from Northern Africa and a lost war, etc. ... but he received the German Iron Cross 1st Class on May 31st, 1942.

Excuse me for this nearly off-topic detail.

All records (hopefully) of the "Al Valore" medals are preserved at our Ministry of Defense's archive but, due to financial problems, most papers aren't digitalized and they need a long research. Add to this that due to our latest "privacy law", informations about Bravery Medals can be requested from direct descendants only...

Best wishes,

Enzo

Hi Enzo

Actually I'm glade you went of our topic. It was very nice that you had shared some of your family history on the forum. You must be very proud to have such a brave dad. I was fascinated to read what you have wrote on your dad's action in WWll. Hope one day you can go into the details of his award. It is that he had to wait such a long time for his award. Perhaps the same wait took place in the 19th century too. I know Italy has a huge bureaucracy, I suppose slowed the award process to a crawl. Great that he did receive his medal & was not forgotten. Even in our country awards can take place 30, 40 & even 50 years after an action.

I understand that the vast majority of gold medals was melted down by orders of Mussolini to pay for the war. How very sad these treasures of histroy were destroyed. Amazing what you had said about the French recipients having there names engraved after award. I guess in France the answer to my guy lies. The recipient was a Canonnier

9eD'ART. His name CHAMOUILLE which I assume is French. I assume the engraving style is the same for French & Italian.

Only way you can tell them apart is the name since unit might be hard if you do not have the proper books. Pity the Italian Ministry of Defense is so secretive. How happy they'd make us collectors if they open their archives to the general public but that is furthest from their mind. So it really is hard to collect the Al-Valore if you want to get info behind the medal.

Sincerely

Brian

Found Bogdan's auction coming up in Jan, nice Iron Crown selection.

No disputing lot 11, having the Rothe signature on the back. Have not seen enough to make a proper judgement on date of issue. Just maybe an interesting variation having a smooth prop to rest the eagle's bottom feathers that connect to the lower crown.

Only a makers mark that would suggest an old piece yet on the new design ( post1866 ) Perhaps a transition piece. Have seen 3rd class examples in gold with no markings at all in the new design. Just don't know what to make of it.

Hello,

the mystery about the EKO 1st Class in auction is solved: it will be sold in New York in January, and it's a very fine set indeed.

There's still a "question mark" on top of my head: until now, I can't understand what would the "F.R" code mean ("Fabelhafte.Realit?t"?...); honestly, I don't know.

In my collection, I have many Iron Crowns and, after Christmas I'll go and take them home to thoroughly check again their marks. I am sure that my EKO collar (in gold) has all the links marked with the "F.R" (in the rectangle); the "Gemsenkopf" and the centre link (where the badge is suspended), besides the mentioned marks, is signed per extenso with the name of Rothe in finely engraved capitals.

I've never seen pieces made -for instance- by Mayer's S?hne, with the "F.R" mark, but they are struck with the "V.M" one, same as those made by Rozet & Fischmeister (yes, that firm produced wonderful pieces!) are struck with the "R&F" mark, besides the gold or silver content marks. All of them, don't bear any "F.R" mark.

The copies of Rothe, made after WW1, are well identifiable from many details; and they can very difficultly deceive a collector. Though, I've seen later copies of Rothe, "updated" with fake 1866-1922 marks. Such pieces found their place in collections, in the same years when the market was flooded with fake orders of the old German states.

Best wishes,

Enzo

P.S.: looking at the scan of that marks' page, I've noticed that it shows silver marks (not gold ones): please see the "crescent" on Diana's head; the greyhound's head is for silver too. on the page's left there are some gold marks ("750") etc. In my opinion, that catalogue needs some corrections.

Hi Enzo

The catalog has another page that shows the gold marks of Phoebus whose facing left and for smaller objects in gold such as Orders a chamois facing right & a fox facing left.

I can't imagine any Iron Crown would have been double stamped by Rothe. They would have no need to stamp it twice unless for a very special reason such as a collar. I'm hoping somebody is sitting on a non Rothe made piece with the FR mark in question to solve & put this issue to rest.

Thanks for everyone comments which have really added to this thread. I'd like to go back to the piece I pasted in from an auction house in my earlier post. The pictures in the auction don't show the actual makers marks and if you have ever tried to take legible pictures of these marks you will know it is virtually impossible to do. They do list the makers mark on the Iron Crown as "F.R." which is quite different from the tax paid marks or hallmarks that Rick posted. They also mention that on the brest star pin the markings are "C. F. Rothe, Wien". I am inclinded to believe that pieces marked with F.R. were made by the firm of ROTHE and this is not a hallmark or tax paid mark. Thanks again for all of your comments.

Regards,

Gordon

Hi Gordon

Email the auction firm, certainly they can provide a more desriptive observation of the marking in question in case of typing era.

Any set that is not in its orginal case is suspect in respect of both pieces not being the orginal awards. Possible a collector could have thrown the two pieces together to complete a set regardless of maker. All to often one encounters sets of two different makers for all sorts of reasons. Even one firm would contract another firm to complete orders if there own stock was low. More important show the experts the Iron Crown for Rothe has made a bunch of post war copies, why I like the other makers. Good luck

Gentlemen

Are there examples of "FR" without the lozenge or rectangular punch? I have seen "Rothe" spelled out ( star ). There are Iron Crown gold examples with other makers mark and the tax release mark on the same badge. You can't possibly have two makers on the same badge. If I am wrong then what does the tax release mark look like? Did the other makers use a lozenge or rectangular punch as well? It would be fascinating to know of anybody has in his collection an "FR" by itself then certainly would support the firm marking the piece. I know all to well that a good amount of German pieces in gold have no markings at all and only with the orginal case one can be 100% certain of the manufacturer. Perhaps Rothe didn't need to mark their badges for they had their logo inside the case. Always eager to learn. If I'm mistaken my apologies to all members.

Sincerely

Yankee

Hi gordon

Rick is absolutely correct in regards to the FR being tax release marks. Unfortunately too many people have it mixed up with the firm Rothe. Never could figure that one out...

FR with a dot in between is the earliest 1866-72

FR without a dot also in a rectangular punch, middle period

FR in a lozenge, late period

This info comes from Mr McNamara who was top expert on Austrian

Interesting enough the Serbs issued several medals for the war with the Turks. As I understand from this thread the 1877 bravery medal is extremely rare compared to the later one that has a laural wreath & shield of arms. Is this because the 1877-78 bravery medal replaced the 1877 and not a chance to award so many soldiers with the former or is it because the 1877 Prince Milan is a higher ranking bravery medal then the 1877-78 medal. Thanks in advance.

Yankee

Perhaps you can see items with ligate F.7 or F.VII (monogram of the creator or the Order, Fernando VII in 1815)

Some others include F (for Fernando) and Y (for Isabel) in gothic style

That explains why I'd see different initials & style. Always thought each Monarch had his or her own monogram on reverse Glade you cleared that up It can be really hard to date the gold ones ( 1810-1900 )since there is little variation over the years.

Thanks

Yankee

This is Fernando and Isabel monograms ligate FIR, F y I, relief or hand-painted

Fernando and Isabel has the Catholic Kings

F: Fernando

I: Isabel

R. Reyes (Kings)

Hi Antonio

Thanks Have noticed different monograms on this order. Any idea when this one was issued?

Thanks

Yankee

Hello

Anyone know which Spainish Monarch had these initials? The obverse has a fine hand painted center, perhaps an indication of a certain period. Any info most appreciated.

Yankee: 1. Bosnisch-hercegovinisches Infanterieregiment - formated 1: January 1894 of independent B-h infantry bataillons Nr.1 (established 1885), Nr.5 (established 1889) and Nr.9 (established 1894). Regiment headquarters in Wienna, bataillons hedqarters: I.Bat - Wienna, II.Bat - Wienna, III.Bat - Sarajevo, IV.Bat - Wienna. According to schematismus, in 1909 (I don?t have at disposal 1900 edition) there were in this regiment 12 officers awarded longservice cross for officers III. klass for 25years...

As I have not seen it here, here is my longservice cross for NCO and men for 18.years (used 1867-69)...

Hi Iver

Thanks for the info, narrowing it down to 12 officers. I understand that the officers from these 4 elite regiments were Austrians and the enlisted men were muslims. Post 33 is a dated 1909 decoration to an officer of the Eisenbahn & Telegraphe Regiment. Does the schematismus give any names? Most welcome to have all types of long service decorations on this thread since there are so many models to learn from.