Farkas

On 08/10/2023 at 00:50, Carlo said:

Hello,
unfortunately I don't know how to help you, I've been asking myself the same question for a long time.
The only thing that came to mind was about the KMT mark, which could also be interpreted as KriegsMeTall, the Karl Truppenkreuz is made of zinc which in German was also called kriegsmetall.

On the version of the Kriegsmedaille made in zinc during the First World War there is the mark KM which I believe also indicates the word kriegsmetall.

 

Unfortunately I can't think of anything else, I hope for the intervention of those who know more.....

There is no definitive answer to the KM stamp, 2 schools of thought on it. One, as you say is KriegsMetall , it makes sense but I’m going with the other, a large metalwork business called KM. 🤷‍♂️

——-

On 08/10/2023 at 00:50, Carlo said:

Unfortunately I can't think of anything else,

Hi Carlos,

thanks for your thoughts because they got me thinking in a different way and I realised I had been overlooking something… That some awards were being made in huge jumbers.
I’d only been thinking of the KTK.
I’ve been concentrating on Jewellers because previously if I’m looking - I’m looking at hallmarks on nice pieces that Gents have posted on GMIC.

So Gents,

I now think I need to look at these as two types, original ww1/KuK period mass production & post KuK production.

I’m sure all this has been done before but I’m having fun anyway 😊

tony 🍻

On 17/09/2023 at 14:00, Gordon Craig said:

Tony,

Thanks for adding to the thread.  I was wondering if it would be possible to judge WWI and WWII badges like this by makers mark and your badge certainly lends credence to that theory.

Regards,

Gordon

 

This metal detecting site has a great database for the backs of buttons, It’s a great help for dating bits of uniform…

https://www.ukdfd.co.uk/pages/button-makers.html

but there is such good details it helped me before with this badge coincidentally Fattorini & Sons also.

Cheers

tony 🍻

On 11/10/2023 at 13:19, Gordon Craig said:

Farcas,

There should not be M numbers on the items that have them.  They were not NSDAP items and therefore did not fall under the regulations covering the sale of Party insignia etc. The Kyffhauser cap badge appears to be authentic.

Regards,

Gordon

 

Thanks Gordon, I’ve been learning a little bit as I Google this stuff and check up on here but I didn’t know that 👍👍 

The Kyfthauser badge is what made me wonder if some of the rest was.

Next up is these 2 👇The face of one has gone missing prior to postage…

ive not seen any real ones to match these…

Any thoughts Gents?

PS remember I presumed they would all be fakes (& paid as so) so no feelings to hurt!!

tony 🍻

Gents,

just found the front

Hi Gents,

there are 3 cap badges

This is a veterans association cockade

SS Visor Cap Skull

This cap badge is marked in the back 

RZM   M1/52

which represents

Deschler & Sohn firm of Munich

However…

I would be extremely surprised if this is anything but a fake. It looked too fresh but something else was bugging me as I was looking at a few real ones.

When I took these pictures though, straightaway it clicked…

that terrible detailing for the ‘cracks.

& lastly…

all thoughts welcome as always 

cheers

tony 🍻

On 29/07/2023 at 14:48, 1812 Overture said:

Although it is beautiful, I think this group of bars was made later. Karl's Legion Cross has obviously faded, but there is no medal for bravery...

🔍 were you looking at the right picture Overture?? 😃

On 30/07/2023 at 00:59, Dave Danner said:

There are two medals for bravery.

tony 🍻

On 04/10/2023 at 04:27, Raz said:

It looks like a common reproduction that's sold by the likes of old
Morigi, etc

Here's a genuine example (#301) from Don Bible's page (https://donbible.wordpress.com/)
compared to your un numbered example plus a Morigi disc below it.

Hi Gents,

finally picked them up today

It’s going to be a mixed result I think.

but lets start with this.,,

It weighs 19.8g

.

what’s your thoughts please Gents?

cheers

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

I’ve just seen this 👇 which would seem to confirm mine is a fake...

its different to mine but this says M9/86 did not make discs...

tony 🍻

Another thing i’ve never heard of Carlos...

this on top of that unusual medal/ribbon hanger you have. 

Looks like I’m gonna have to go check my little handful of bars as well now 😊 

tony 🍻

1 hour ago, Graf said:

Nice work Tony

Cheers Graf 🍻🍻

On 11/09/2023 at 21:06, unmo300 said:

GW - Győrffy és Wolf Fémipari Részvénytársaság.

On 12/09/2023 at 21:43, Farkas said:

 

Thanks unmo300,

i’m keen to pin these makers down if i can and this one wasn’t settled for me.

Can you expand on anything for me please? It would be great to have a reference to place on here if possible, 👍

 

I’m translating (from Hungarian) as

Győrffy és Wolf   - Győrffy & Wolf (names

Fémipari      -   Metallurgical 

Részvénytársaság - (joint stock) company

 

Is this  roughly it?

‘Győrffy & Wolf Metalwork Company’

 

 

Did you already have knowledge of Győrffy & Wolf and the GW mark?

 

A lot of questions i know, my apologies and thanks in advance!

 

tony 🍻

 

Ps

i wonder if i am related?? 😊

 

 

I’d love to hear a little more about this company... ☝️

Győrffy és Wolf Fémipari Részvénytársaság.

On 17/08/2023 at 01:57, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

Why didn’t I just leave it at that…🤷‍♂️
 

I couldn’t though.

 

On the rim of a thin KTK a simplified makers mark is understandable but there is plenty of space on Grahams wound medal for Grossmans usual mark.

I’ve been looking for others so I kept looking for GW and I found one.

 

 

In theory, it has to be him.

The GW is his makers mark.

 

Unless the business had ceased trading by 1916 and it was up for grabs?

I can’t get any results for him or his business on Google, even with ‘Wilde’ and ‘Wildt’.  I guess there are some in German but it just isn’t matching me with them.

Any thoughts Gents?

 

tony 🍻

 

Gustav Wild is still a possibility to me ☝️

Grossman Wien has to be too👇

On 12/08/2023 at 05:36, Farkas said:

Well Gents,

I’ve looked into this for ages now…

there is no recognised maker known to use GW. There are a few German makers including Wellner who it could match, after all KTK were made for veterans in the 30’s and GW could be one of them but there is one reference claiming to identify it.

 

I still wouldn’t bet the mortgage on this because it was/is only one reference in a ‘for sale’ ad, however it is an Austrian maker and who am I to discount it.

 

Graham, thanks for this 👆, it was the 18 that led me to it, it was also a wound medal, apparently marked GW&18 and representing Grossman, Vienna.

Though other Grossman marks exist and no records of this one does…

I’m going with Grossman.

 

cheers

tony 

So for now i’m going to (try to) leave it at those 3...

a confident vote from unmo300 :

Győrffy és Wolf

Fémipari Részvénytársaság.

a 3rd party identification :

Grossman Wien

a jeweller with a matching GW mark :

Gustav Wild

————————

Thanks for the support/input Gents.

It makes all the difference...

tony 🍻🍻

On 12/08/2023 at 11:22, graham said:

Good work Farkas.

2 hours ago, Graf said:

Nice work Tony

On 08/10/2023 at 01:00, Carlo said:

Interesting, it could be, it's a shame we don't have a box to add a few more elements to the search...

On 11/09/2023 at 21:06, unmo300 said:

GW - Győrffy és Wolf Fémipari Részvénytársaság.

👍👍

17 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

The little swastika is very similar to the one worn on the cap in some Legion Condor Photos?

In the pic below it does look like there are 2 separate parts & I can’t make out any surround to the swastika badge in the original photo, both of which support ☝️

tony 🍻

On 08/10/2023 at 01:00, Carlo said:

Interesting, it could be, it's a shame we don't have a box to add a few more elements to the search...

I agree, 

i’ve been looking into these marks for at least 6 months now. It might be time to accept there is a reason these marks are still considered unidentified.

There are numerous businesses with the correct initials, unfortunately the ‘unknown’ KTK marks are likely not even regular makers marks, which would be distinguishable from each other.

Also, it appears, there is the use of metalworks and others not usually involved in medal making to consider.

tony 🍻

Search for GW, nearly 6 months. 👇

Carlos,

I too need to see more please...

a treat to have complete and boxed.

But also because the hanger is new to me. How does that work inside the ribbon?

I’m think I’m going to have to open up one or two of mine now just in case 🤞

cheers

tony 🍻

17 minutes ago, Carlo said:

In my opinion an interesting piece and not easy to find.

Thanks Carlo…

tony 🍻

Hello Gents,

I don’t know anything about the finer details of the things i admire, I’m in awe of those that are, like yourselves... so to hear disagreements is strangely comforting 😊

but i do know words seldom convey quite what was meant, and how it was meant, when they are written not spoken, read not heard...

tony 🍻💕

🤷‍♂️ Because...

Everyone loves a good belt ‘thing’!

On 06/10/2023 at 17:40, --dj--Joe said:

Badge of the Spanish Legion.

 

A rifle(musket) and a crossbow crossed over a halberd with a centered crown.

 

--dj--Joe

I was thinking French at first but i agree it must be the Spanish Legion. 👍

6 hours ago, Gordon Craig said:

The following response was posted by Antonio on the WAF.  I have translated it to English.

PERMANENCE IN THE LEGION To see the enlarged emblems, click on the image To see a larger picture of a particular badge please click on it

---

 

Royal circular order of November 26, 1923, order of May 6, 1938 and order 371/7812/81 of June 3
Description of the badge It will consist of the emblem of the Legion, 55 millimeters high, embroidered in gold, which will be worn on the right side of the chest. At the bottom, five millimeters apart and spaced four millimeters apart, as many red bars, two millimeters thick and the width of the emblem, will be added as many full years have remained in said bodies. For every five years, as many red bars will be replaced by one embroidered in gold, five millimeters thick, placed in the place of the first. Conditions for use 1st. One year of permanence and 20 acts of arms. 2nd. Two years of permanence and 10 acts of weapons. 3rd. Three years of permanence and five acts of arms. 4th. Being injured, becoming useless or disabled. 5th. One year of stay and injured in an armed incident. 6th. Being injured in two armed incidents. 7th. Three years of permanence. For these purposes, those in which the force that commanded during the action who aspires to the distinction has suffered casualties will be considered as acts of arms (...)
1.—The insignia of the Legion will be granted by application of any of the previous sections. 2.—There will be the right to add bars to the insignia of the Legion, regardless of the section for which application they have been granted. 3.—Notwithstanding the above, the bars whose addition is granted to badges granted by application of section 7 will be, by exception, black, and every five black bars granted must be replaced by a silver one, which may be replaced for those of red and gold if any of the other conditions are met after the granting.
6 years of permanence (sections 1 to 6)	7 years of permanence (6 years sections 1st to 6th + 1 year section 7th)	12 years of permanence (6 years sections 1st to 6th + 6 years section 7th)	5 years of permanence (section 7)

In Gordons information it says the badge is to be worn on the right side but the man pictured has it on his left...

I can’t find anything like those unusual looking inverted chevrons, they were the reason i thought French, now i’m assuming wound stripes not rank or service stripes... However to me, recognition of wounds and service seems to be covered in the regulations by the addition of the bars under the badge.

The badge worn is rough looking, maybe an unofficial version and lastly the Swastika badge wasn’t regulation.

So I wonder if this is a foreign volunteer serving outside of the official Spanish legion? and/or the picture taken in a period before the above regulations?

An interesting picture no doubt.

tony 🍻🍻

On 22/09/2023 at 20:27, Farkas said:

based on that I’m not expecting the third reich items to be original but hopeful they may have a little age to them.

2 hours ago, Raz said:

Look forward to seeing closeups

🍻🍻

Hi Gents,

The V&S is…

Vaughton & Sons

Birmingham.

On 29/09/2023 at 04:14, Marcon1 said:

Hi,

 

The crown is that used by the British Merchant Navy and Royal Navy.

 

This Merchant Navy (MN) identification badge was issued to seamen on British ships in January 1940 and to those on New Zealand ships from July 1941.

 

No idea what the W stands for, maybe issued to someone who saved a life at sea (hence the life buoy) or perhaps a brooch for a loved one (girlfriend ??).

 

Marcon1.

I agree, certainly Merchant Navy related.

I didn’t know before but it’s a ‘Shipping Line’ badge.

There are a few examples of cap badges about, I haven’t seen a pin badge though so a nice thing to have.

The W I have a feeling stands for ‘Wilson’ but there are a few other lines starting W so a little research on which were in the British MN required..

cheers

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

Cheers 

tony 🍻

37 minutes ago, Raz said:

Look forward to seeing closeups, but sadly straight away that gestapo disc isn't good.

II thought that, because it should have a number? t

Well Gents,

these are finally in the post.

I worked out a deal for the family tree (and a signed Pulp Fiction poster 🤷‍♂️) to help keep him sweet 🤞.

I’ve gotta be honest though after waiting a week for them to be posted I’m a little worried that if anything was originally overlooked/unchecked, there has been plenty of time to replace it.

I hope I’m being unfair, but these things happen… so the wait has been killing me.

All will be answered in a day or two.

cheers

tony 🍻

It’s a lovely thing Carlo.

I wonder if the KTK is a replacement item or a later addition.  
 

cheers

tony 🍻

On 29/09/2023 at 04:52, gjw said:

Hey all, so what is your opinion on this one?  Period, later or fake?

 

The ribbon is a replacement of course.

 

Many thanks!

 

Greg

 

I like it Greg… I’ve no experience with them to spot fakes, I’m useless at that anyway, but having said that, I do like it.

Design looks good, the wear on it and it’s overall appearance seems in keeping with others I’ve seen.

This is an informative thread 👍

cheers

tony 🍻

Hello Gents,

I’ve been struggling for some time with another of the makers mark found on Karl Truppen Kreuz.

One of mine has the MKT stamp.

MKT is a known KTKreuz maker mark but is unidentified as far as I know. Also unidentified is another known maker KMT though I don’t have that one myself.

I thought it possible that they both belong to the same manufacturer or at least two sources with a link. So far that is still my leaning.

But… I can’t get past the language barrier so I’m hoping you kind Gents can help me please. Probably to rule out the first, probably to rule out the second of these too,  but what you make of the 3rd?

I think this is a ‘phrase’ and not the answer but I couldn’t ignore it.

Metall Kunststoff Technik

Kunststoff Metall Technik
 

This firm does not seem to have history in the relevant period…

Metall Koks Trade

Koks Metall Trade
 

This is the one I have hope might be a possibility. I am sure I saw at some point a reference to a business with this name and the date 1906. I can’t find it again.

Metall Konrad Technk

Konrad Metall Technik

Can anyone help me with the information about this firm and its history, or possibly of an original earlier separate (family?) business with the same name?

I can’t read German 🥺 and Google knows it, I’m getting almost no results.

Any thoughts or comments appreciated as always

Cheers

tony 🍻

On 25/09/2023 at 01:30, WJT said:

Thanks, at this time anything is possible

Whatever it is it’s a beautiful looking thing to have…

tony 🍻

On 06/09/2023 at 23:01, WJT said:

The piece is one piece and very heavy, very industrial.

there two studs that we cut off. I looked for some significance to the J2 over 25 but have not found any. Thought it might be a date too but the date dos not connect to anything.

Thanks for the questions

Bill

i’ve just spotted this 👇

it’s described as likely coming off a train, an old steam engine I presume from the date…

Nowhere near as sharp looking as yours but the similarities make it worth a mention.

cheers

tony 🍻

On 20/09/2023 at 20:58, Freejack said:

I am thinking , maybe  better to stop to buy WW2 items. 

It’s such a shame that when we find something & are happy to pay the price, we still can’t be confident in our purchase. Now that even the experienced collectors have different opinions, what hope is there.  

On 21/09/2023 at 13:17, Graf said:

Other problem is that fakers keep their knowledge up to date They also read our forums and books how to detect fakes ..and they correct their mistakes an providing much better fakes

As Graf says, the fakers keep improving.

It seems the tells that people used to rely on are close to gone. Some when copied were an incorrect weight but now that’s no longer reliable. Some had a particular detail or design that was once beyond copying well but now easily done.

There is currently a UK firm hand making old British uniforms, supposedly for tv/theatre but there are a good dozen of their copies for sale as original on eBay. For now at least, luckily, there is still one sometimes two ways i spot them, which I won’t mention here.

& Personally, I sadly no longer buy postcards, I found a couple of fakes in my collection and that ended it for me, there and then. Printers now are just too good.

On 21/09/2023 at 13:04, Gordon Craig said:

Also, as you have already noted, some collectors will tell you an article is real and some will tell you it is fake.  Who do you believe?

👆 In most scenarios the best action is to walk away and find another example that hopefully receives universal approval but…

as in this case where there is little availability it is easier said than done.

cheers

tony 🍻