Farkas

48 minutes ago, Bernd_W said:

If something is described as copies (like the last examples in the topic), its hard not to know.

For most fakes, sold as real or the obvious "I dont know if its real" description, it might be the ignorance. 

 

Common strategy back then, ten years ago. But these days most bidders use sniper tool and bid in the last second so no one can outbid them. This sticks at least to the more searched after genuin stuff, from what I observed in the last years. Guess it also sticks to the fakes.

Yes, hard to miss copy in the description.

A legit old tailors copy of a VC makes sense, it’s that or nothing but i guess not these above.

Mainly my thing is Austro Hungarian, I don’t know enough to buy pricier awards. So I’ve lots of AH awards but 95% are basic ones, like my KTK’s 👇

My only medal worth over £200 was a private deal and I asked learned Gents to check it out first.

I can often see that an item is bad but I still cannot confidently say an item is good, 

tony 🍻

Sorry to babble on but last thing..,

2 hours ago, Bernd_W said:

most bidders use sniper tool

If bid is 40 and I’m bidding 100, I put lots of extra bids in, eg 50,62,70, 81 92 then 100…

I don’t know if it really works but I heard it triggers the sniper bids so why not 🤷‍♂️

45 minutes ago, Lukasz Gaszewski said:

Hello everyone,

 

the only correct official precedence for a Polish military would be as follows:

1. Krzyż Walecznych
2. Medal Wojska
3. Krzyż Pamiątkowy Monte Cassino
4. 1939-1945 Star
5. Italy Star
6. Defence Medal
7. War Medal 1939-1945

It should be noted that the recipients who had both Medal Wojska and the War Medal were not supposed to wear them together (but they often did). 

 

I also do not think the medals could have belonged to a Brit, as both Medal Wojska and Monte Cassino were conferred exclusively upon members of the Polish Land Forces and not upon the Allies. Such a set of medals was typical of a soldier of the 2nd Polish Corps, who had participated in the capture of Monte Cassino in May 1944.

 

Judging from the photos, the ribbons look genuine, although the Monte Cassino ribbon should have a bronze "Monte Cassino" bar upon it.

Thanks Lucasz ,

it didn’t occur to me to check the order of wear for those, it makes sense for the bravery award to be first now you say it.

tony 🍻
 

Hi Gents,

is anyone able to explain to me how this Vienna address from post ww1 worked please?

I can’t understand the meaning of the address style ifor Strudlhofgasse, Wien 9.

There is Wien 9, which I understand is the District. Then Strudlhofgasse, which I understand is the street/road, I found that on a map but I don’t understand if it is

one large building,

separate commercial premises and houses

or

blocks of flats/apartment buildings? 
 

Is it the same now as it was in the 1930’s?
 

I have an a first address 
Strudlhofgasse 14/11

Is that for 

building 14 /apartment 11

And I have another

Strudlhofgasse 14/14

is that in the same building?

Any information at all about the place would be greatly appreciated Gents…

thanks

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

Theme for today is…

’Treue Liebe’

Same lady…

cheers

tony 🍻

Yes that’s it 👍.

Afterwards It did occur to me that maybe the Brit medals were first as a Brit would have to wear them.. and maybe a Pole in the exile forces should have also 🤷‍♂️
 

However prioritising the 3 Polish awards, I’m pretty sure, is the way any Pole would have worn it.

Maybe someone else on here can confirm  whether or not Brits were even eligible for all those 3. 

 🍻 It’s a nice thing and not a common combination I would imagine.

cheers

tony 

Hi Gents,

i was wondering what you think the reason is for the desire to buys these, let alone the price.

Is it a lack of genuine articles for sale so ‘something’ better than nothing?

or someone like me who wouldn’t know the item is dodgey and thinks the price is good?

One seller I watched in the past always used the same ‘sock’ accounts to boost the bidding, often cancelling their highest bid if they pushed it up too far.  It only took one sucker to fall for the fake to allow them to push the price up.

Of course EBay didn’t care to stop it.

cheers

tony🍻

Hi No one,

As you’ve noticed, the order of wear for the British ones should be 👇

I reckon at first…

#1. Awarded in the field in 1944 and always placed 1st

& then #4. added, worn next on top row.

with #7. & #6. & #5. as the second row.

When #2&#3 were added later…

#4. was dropped down to the second row and the second row was accidentally flipped/messed up.

To me the way it was worn was picture A, 3 over 4, with the seam being the one above the left breast pocket.

tony 🍻

Hi Ian,

me again 😊

I need to start with a disclaimer 🤷‍♂️
 

If there’s one thing I learnt the hard way it is just because something you see a picture of, matches the thing you have… it doesn’t mean that there aren’t a dozen other things that match it too.

Traditions, imagery & styles of system, uniform and more have long been adopted, mimicked, inherited etc throughout the world…

particularly those started by us Brits 🇬🇧

The devil is in the detail.

Having said that…

I’m now even more convinced the uniform being worn is a US Navy uniform.

I can’t find anything that matches the collar lace of your guy, in particular the extra middle piece, that is except for that of an 1800’s USN Captain.

The ‘lace’ strip in the middle is the detail I’ve focused on. Officers of many navies have the collar bordered but not that one in the middle…

So eventually I focused on confirming that USN link and found this 👇 site with the most excellent & extensive details.

https://asvab-prep.com/pictorial-history-of-us-navy-uniforms-need-to-know/

You will need to go through it yourself.

It will be worth it.

Many of the subtle differences involve cuff stripes, trousers lace, number of buttons or width of lace..,that type of thing, which will be impossible to compare as they are not evident in your portrait.

However…

it seems navy surgeons wore equivalent uniforms to the regular officers which gave me the encouragement to keep reading through it.

& then I saw this connection 

and that lead to lots of things like this 👇

So it turns out there is a significance to this 👇 that i overlooked 🤷‍♂️

So I refer back to my initial disclaimer..,

‘Just because this matches, it does not mean that nothing else matches too…’

But I reckon there is the start of the answer.

Cheers

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

I thought this was worth a mention.

2 weeks ago I followed some link or other and it took me to the ‘MyHeritage’ site.

The information was behind the pay wall.

I decided to sign up for the 14 day free trial after which, unless cancelled, I would be charged £79 up front for a years access…

I didn’t fancy paying that and today,

on day 13 I cancelled my free trial.

I then got a further discount offered.., which I accepted.

- Price reduced to £32.70 , for first year.
- About 60p a week, to me, is worth paying…

So Gents, I just wanted to share this.

If like me 33 quid is a price you can accept, try doing the above.

If you are going to sign up with them anyway then try this to see if you can get this same offer.

If you are already signed up and paying full whack ££ then say you want a discount or you’re off & start a new account.(if you don’t have stuff stored)

You get the gist anyway…

Lastly, I’m happy to have a look on there for established Gents that need something they can ‘see’ is there but is behind the pay well.

cheers

tony 🍻

On 15/03/2024 at 12:16, Graf said:

Yes, it is sad that families from one or other reason depart from such items

Every time when i am approached by family members for opinion whether to sell or to keep similar items I do my best to convince them to keep them.Their are significant part from the family history Once gone they are gone

I saw a ww1 trio on eBay, a really poor looking listing, starting price £60, the main pic was just one of the medals and it wasn’t clear it was for 3.

In the description he said they were his Grandfathers…

I was the only bidder with not long to go. 
So he was not sure to get much more.

I messaged him. I said cancel it and keep them. Said, like you do, he’ll regret it one day. He was young and wasn’t convinced. Turns out his Grandmother was still alive which made his attitude even more disappointing.

I said ‘at least if you’re going to sell them you should get a decent price’ 

I suggested new listing, better pictures etc, include a photo or 2 preferably in uniform and/or some ‘junk’ from his drawer or odd things to bulk it & to try and ‘personalise’ the medals.

He cancelled the listing to do that.

A week later he messaged & told me he was keeping them. Happily after talking to his GMother and seeing some photos of his GFather in uniform he found that connection that had been missing at first.

There aren’t too many things I’ve done that I feel made a real difference but I will remember that one for a while.

cheers

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

re this new one…

I had concluded previously that it must be Zagreb Metal…

On 09/03/2024 at 06:08, Christian1962 said:

 

Dear Tony,

please mind that Zagreb was called "Agram" during the Habsburg period until November 1918. I am not sure if a company working for the crown would have the used the name "Zagreb Metal"?

 

Kindest regards

Christian

Thanks to Christians invaluable help once again 👆 , I started looking afresh and (I believe) I now have the correct ID for the maker with the ‘new to me’  MZ (not ZM) makers mark.

It didn’t help that it was reversible.

It also didn’t help that I ignored some of the lessons learned from my previous searches 🙈

The previous marks in this were all for large scale production facilities , the manufacturers marks were not listed as jewellers marks, noticeably none had any sort of border, the were simpler punch marks, the letters alone & indented.

This latest mark is in fact a bonafide, listed makers mark for a jewellers.

It has a rectangular border, the interior of which is all indented except the letters, they are in relief, ie themselves raised not punched.

The shape of the surround and the letters of a jewellers mark are combined to make unique designs.

So I checked lists thoroughly, through German and various other AH states as well as the Austrians before settling on one…

- There is no matching ZM.

- There is only one matching MZ amongst the few MZ marks, each clearly with different surrounds/features.

For example these other Austrian MZ marks each have their differences circled…

Enough of what it isn’t 👆

Time for what it is 👇

Barely visible in the flesh let alone below

I am open, as always, to correction but this time hopefully not, 🤞

Max Zirner, KuK court Jewellers.

Jewellery business active 1885 - 1924

Active business in Vienna and elsewhere until 1924 although from one source it appears he himself died in 1918.

A family business, his brother was also active previously but seems only until 1905, presumably when he himself died.

So Gents,

in my opinion, this is a new little addition to the story of the Karl Truppen Kreuz.

Certainly amongst English language information and amongst those (limited) foreign language records available to me, MZ is a previously unmentioned makers mark on a KTK.

Any thoughts welcome as always Gents.

cheers

tony 🍻

Hi Brent,

it would be great if you can find them, I don’t think there is a quick route though you may be lucky 🤞

In the UK there are some kind fellas who try and reunite medals with family, I would guess there is someone doing similar local to you.

Perhaps first if you haven’t already you could try searching ‘medal-finders’ or similar online generally… or look specifically for such accounts on twitter or Facebook 🤞

Otherwise I’ve got 2 suggestions, one more optimistic but potentially rewarding than the other…

1st Suggestion

Myself, when I search for background on a medal recipient I use the exact details on the medal I have.

The number,  rank & name,  unit.

Happily you have all of this and more in the emedals ad. But someone using Google search won’t find the details on an image so don’t be shy, write it all out on here 😊, just use this post, the more you ‘type out’ the more chance the owner of the group might ‘get a hit’, might find this, and get in touch.
For sure, this is 🤞 and wait…

but ‘must’ be done.

2nd suggestion 

Contact eMedals.

They surely still know who bought them.

You’ll need to ‘persuade’ them it’s appropriate to pass on communication from the family.

“I don’t need the address but please would you consider forwarding a message from the family” 
You get the gist 👍

I doubt they would do this as a matter of course.  But… Guaranteed, just like every lover of medals, theoretically they would love to reunite medals with a family that wants them.

So it must be worth ‘gently’ trying to engage with them.

Thats all I’ve got !!

Cheers

tony 🍻

Hi Ian,

I haven’t given up looking, seems if the uniform is depicted correctly he isn’t Royal Navy, I can’t match that collar, though so many variations over the years it’s still possible.

I’m currently tempted to say it’s American, there are similar uniforms I’ve seen 🤷‍♂️ but plenty more to rule out first, I haven’t even started on the ‘Indian Navy’ yet 😊

In the meantime, have you seen this 👇

you might find it interesting

tony 🍻

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/83419711/william-eatwell

👍

On 08/03/2024 at 10:37, Graf said:

Nice work Tony

Should be with family in my opinion but probably them that’s sold/selling it.

I hope it found the right home 🤞

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

I just recently spotted 👇and nabbed it!

It came from a dealer who buys up collections and is not shy to say ‘copy’ if he should, so I went for it.

I got it for £14, I was the only bidder 🤷‍♂️
 

Maybe the lack of date, swords & ribbon put people off but luckily I found this thread and that settled it for me.

& I was in fact expecting a silver one because the photo lighting wasn’t great (or was my 👀) so happy days so far 😊

Is this one of the S&L manufactured examples discussed above? 3rd class?

That was my guess…

Any comments welcome as always Gents.

cheers

tony 🍻

ps it’s the first Finnish award I’ve got 😊

pps

On 29/05/2014 at 20:08, Dave Danner said:

Everything post-1945 I have from S&L - Bundesrepublik awards and '57 awards - has their maker's mark. Do the Finnish ones have them?

Dave,

I’ve not found a makers mark on it 👍

1 hour ago, USN said:

What would the A signify then? It doesn't appear to be specific to a tailor seeing as how his trousers have the mark but are not from the same tailor. Is it possibly some kind of mark from a depot showing the tunic was turned in and reworked? This could also explain the different cuff ranks. A lieutenant was killed and the tunic was sent through and reissued to a captain who added the proper rank insignia? I'm just spitballing some ideas.

In theory there were only three marks put on issued British uniforms, a paper label or the WD arrow stamp & soldiers mark.

Pre ww1 a standardised size black ink stamp with the soldiers personal details, this rarely happened in WW1 though. The unit quartermaster at some level with no now apparent system would mark them to stop any other unit pilfering them. The above 6WK I’m guessing is 6th West Kent(?) for example.

The abbreviation A when used by British army usually stands for Artillery. In this case it wouldn’t stop much pilfering because the the royal corps of artillery is so vast so if I had to guess it’s A company but that’s not usual on its own as far as I know.

I asked to see the stamp because I thought it likely to be…

(number) /|\ (letter)

the letter tells us the depot and holds clues regardless but neatly yours is the letter A which is for Aldershot.
& Aldershot was set up in 1915 specifically to handle Officers uniforms, a facility not required until the War.

As ayedee said needs demanded kit for the ‘less well off’ new breed of Officer.

I got to arguing the principle of why I wanted to see the stamp and the rest of it but…

I would say as you both have officers kit, and both have the A stamp, that it is most likely for Aldershot.
Possibly a stamp to direct it there or to note it being there. Perhaps there was a service to tailor a mans uniform if he received promotion 🤷‍♂️ that might explain the absence of the need for the usual acceptance stamp.

Lastly, re the stitching mark, I hadn’t thought of stripes, which is most likely, I thought maybe a warrant officers crown 🤷‍♂️

It’s an interesting find for sure.

tony 🍻

All War Department Service Dress issued post June 1915 had either an RACD paper label, maybe the tunic once did, or a WD stamp.

All War Department stamps before, during and for years after WW1 had ‘W/|\D’…

Specifically in 1916 and 1918, all had W/|\D, the inspectors identification number and the inspection depots identification letter.

So it is not a War Department stamp.

- example below on the right.

I’ve suggested the alternative that I think it is, a ‘soldiers mark’.

- example below on the left.

I don’t see the problem, it’s better than a WD stamp in my opinion too 🤷‍♂️ Anyway, think I best leave you both to it. 👍

tony 🍻

On 12/03/2024 at 01:52, ayedeeyew said:

 

This is 100% incorrect I'm afraid. Perfectly as marked before it ever got to the original owner.

I don’t see why you disliked any of what I said and I may be taking you the wrong way but for now I’ll answer you in the same tone…

In my opinion the stamp on your trousers was applied at a unit level once received by the Quartermaster or soldier. Pre war more detailed and done by the soldier, later becoming more basic and usually by the CQM.

For you to claim I’m 100% incorrect so ‘directly’, of course I have to presume you must know

what the stamp is there for?

& who put it there?

Honestly I don’t think you do know…

but if you do, I’ll be happy to hear about a stamp I’ve not known of before.

I’m here to learn, so please enlighten me.

tony 🍻

On 12/03/2024 at 02:03, TracA said:

Thank you Tony! Forget me not...Send a night prayer...a much sought after article. Serious...sad...and humorous.

 

These postcards are wonderful.

 

Tracy

 

 

I’ve got to admit that I find these latest six a particularly nice bunch even if I say so myself 😊

Many such postcards appear to be part of different series’ that use the same ‘soldier’ and lady in similar looking pictures. The early themes used proud/patriotic  ‘off to war’ type images. Later ones noticeably more about the men thinking about, or writing to, the women waiting for them back at home.

I think I will organise the postcards a bit to show the ‘related’ designs together.

tony 🍻

Hi Gents,

and the back for this one 👇

and the last one, it looks maybe post war to me…

cheers all

tony 🍻

On 09/03/2024 at 17:24, TracA said:

My pleasure.

 

I especially like the "longing fills my heart" postcard.

 

Tracy

I put a couple more postcards in this one for you 🍻

9 hours ago, ayedeeyew said:

 

People tend to forget that increasingly from the mid-war period onwards an option available to officers in the field (and those less well off) was to purchase/replace their kit through the War Department. The markings Will describes and the label he shows are typical for these "off the peg" garments (I have previously seen the general quality described as "workman-like"). They have a much lower survival rate than the usual private purchase items, and I consider myself very fortunate in having a 1918 dated pair of the trousers of this type:

The stamps on these trousers were put there by the recipient, it’s his unit and the date. ‘A’ Company presumably and 1918.

If there was also a War Department arrow then the ‘A’ would presumably mean Aldershot, a quality assessment facility opened in 1916 to be responsible for Officers uniforms.

So

21 hours ago, Farkas said:

if I can see the ‘1916’ stamp you mention that will help explain its origin

On 23/02/2024 at 03:21, USN said:

Does anyone know how to identify the proper collar insignia for this period tunic? I have seen a few different examples but am unsure of what would be the proper style.

These are the officers badges

but I’m pretty sure officers would have used a subdued version, or an other ranks version, on the khaki dress during ww1.

I can’t find a record of ‘E. Clark & Sons’, is there more on the tailors label? maybe it’s bigger & folded under on the left? 

to me it’s an unusual label for a private purchase tunic,  though hopefully if I can see the ‘1916’ stamp you mention that will help explain its origin and regardless it would be interesting as that’s also unusual on an officers tunic….  
 

tony
 

On 09/03/2024 at 06:08, Christian1962 said:

 

Dear Tony,

please mind that Zagreb was called "Agram" during the Habsburg period until November 1918. I am not sure if a company working for the crown would have the used the name "Zagreb Metal"?

 

Kindest regards

Christian

Well that’s a shame, I’ve just lost my lunch money I guess….

& thanks Christian, I do need to get it right or there’s no point trying.

Back to google search for me 🍻

On 09/03/2024 at 17:28, TracA said:

 

Tony,

 

Unfortunately my old eyes don't let me see the marks in the pictures. However, I look forward to when you have more time for taking pictures and then posting them to the Show Your Japanese Medal Hallmarks & Maker's Marks thread.

 

Tracy

I know the feeling 🤓

I look forward to seeing what you make of them. 🍻

cheers both

tony

Moving this back up 👍

On 10/03/2022 at 18:28, nickstrenk said:

Good evening!Here we have some Spanish awards.All stars have marks.Who will be able to give an approximate price?About 500euro?Thanks for the answer.

 I don’t know what they are worth but they are great looking things 👍👍