MASteel

Hi Christophe & Happy 2013 for all!

If the second ribbon from right is Finnish VR4 (Cross of Liberty 4th class) then I'd say this is probably ribbon bar for an officer.

VR4 ribbon is not Finnish made nor is the sword device but since so many Finnish awards were awarded to Germans also ribbons were made in Germany (as well as replacement awards).

With best,

Miikka

The mark located inside the first photo at the top of the thread is that of Canadian War Assets (CAW). The mark looks like a circle but it is actually open for a small bit forming a letter 'C'. The 'W' is intersected in the middle to form the letter 'A'. The CAW was set up in 1945 to dispose of military property that was considered surplus to needs and is now known as Crown Assets (formerly Crown Assets Disposal Corp). The Tam may be WWI but was still in stores in WWII.

Clive

thanks for the info!!!

-Miikka

Thx for your reply!

Dull cherry band has been on this cap for a very long time, that is quite obvious when handled it "live".

I've also learnt that anything is possible, that is one thing I've noticed during the years of collecting military uniforms!

...am I correct that also buttons would support that cap is upgraded to colonel's rank by adding the dull cherry band?

(Btw, found & bought the books (or rather series of books) by Mike Chappel that Leigh meintioned on WW1 TOS thread )

Thank you Leigh!

So full colonels could wear colored cap band. Cap band looks to be "loose", ie. added to the cap after manufacturer has made the actual cap. Was that common practice? One could imagine that full colonel would order all new gear after promotion but also keep old ones for field etc service and upgrade those to new rank.

Cap is very heavy, f.ex. if you compare it to German WW2 era visor caps.

If this hat and the battle dress tunic are from the same officer then I recon that at least cap band was added post war since the tunic has January -45 stamp and Lt.Col rank pips. Sure there was still enough time to get a promotion during the war but why not update rank on Battle Dress tunic...?

Thanks,

Miikka

Gentlemen,

This Service Dress cap came from eban with -45 stamped Battle Dress tunic & -45 stamped black beret. BD tunic has R.A.M.C. shoulder titles + Welch regiment formation badges.

Seller stated that all were originally from same Lt.Col's estate but no name available.

I've read from somewhere (but I can't find the reference now) that higher/staff officers had this arm-of-services colored band on their Service Dress caps. Which was the first rank that could wear it? Lt.Col.?

I've not seen these caps for sale with any other colored bands than "normal" red (besides pictured "dull cherry" for medical). Were those not "popular" amongst the higher officers or did they wear red bands?

This cap is well worn but still in quite nice shape! Beret that came with the lot is not as much used (-45 year stamp might have something to do with that!).

I'd be pleased to hear any opinions about this cap!

With rgds,

Miikka

Lion has eyes too!

Thank you Leigh, thank you very much!

I need to buy that book, if still available!

-Miikka

Thank you for the compliment & good information!

I might leave this as it is now but if I'd restore it with a tartan patch I'd do just as Leigh describes, with a tartan patch only lightly tacked from corners, for display purposes only. It displays nicely already as it is now.. but with a tartan patch it would look even better!

Leigh, are there somewhere (close up) pictures available from WW1 troopers wearing a TOS with a tartan battle patch? I think that was not the headgear they worn while taking studio potraits..

Thanks again,

Miikka

thx forthe tip, Bing is something new for me!

I wonder which, if any, Scottish regiment in WW1-era wore only piece of tartan on their Tam's? Cap badges of Scottish regiments seem to be quite big (heavy) and this cap does not have hole/s on it from a through punctured badge... I imagine that those big badges would need to be punctured through the cap's cloth too in order to look sharp/hold in place, not just through tartan which then had been sewn to the cap..?

-Miikka

Thx Mike,

Yes, I've learnt that many Scottish regiments had/has tartan backing on their cap badge and some even wore, if my memory serves me, only tartan w/o a badge?

Any advice where to look for WW1 period Scottish regimnt cap badge with tartan backing??

Cheers,

Miikka

I'm very pleased to tell that pictured Tam arrived today in my mailbox !

It's in great shape. There are traces of a cap badge, not from one that would have been punctured through the fabric but something has been sewed on it (line of needle holes + pieces of thread can be seen inside). Most likely a piece of tartan?

Could anyone advice from where to look a cap badge w/tartan backing that would be a match to this Tam? Only cap badge with tartan backing that I've seen is sold here http://www.wdmilitar...ph=12983&phqu=2

But I think badge is not from WW1 era? And since the cloth is worn on edges on that one I think it would be quite difficult to sew into this Tam and it would not match the wear on the Tam.

Any advice from where to look?

There is a seller at ebay that is listing pieces of tartan (for cap badges) for sale, says that those are coming from original regimental garments and sales prices are going for restoration of...hmmm...can't remember what was the target but it was good anyway.

With rgds & thanks,

Miikka

Very informative, thx for posting!

Very informative & interesting, thx for posting!

-Miikka

Thank you William for the help, I'm very grateful! It's always a great pleasure to learn something new about our hobby, especially when a newbie in this area (British/Scottish/Commonwealth) military like myself!

One dealer/collector in UK already told me that this could be from the 1950's For his defense, he's involved with WW2 era stuff.

I must say that British/Commonwealth uniforms/headgear are fascinating, especially due regimental level dress code differences! I think I'll dig deeper into this...can't help it!

I already sent a message to the seller that I'll take it... I hope he still had it!

Will keep you posted !

Thanks again,

Miikka

Miikka

It's a WW1 Tam o shanter. Buy it!

Regards,

W.

Thanks for the tip & info!

For the educational purposes, what are the "give aways" to date this to WW1?

Thanks,

Miikka

Very nice ribbon bars! Finland and Germany were very close during our Liberation War time and many members of Baltic Division got Finnish awards. Same in WW2 era when we had lot's of German troops in here, especially up in north.

Basic rule was that Liberty medals (from the Order of Liberty) were given to NCO's/other ranks and officers got Liberty crosses. Higher grades for the higher ranks.

Oldish thread but very interesting! Thanks for sharing your family history!

Thanks for your replies & info !!

Tere Timo!

First ribbon bar you have in there has VR2 but what is the other ribbon, Estonian award maybe? Interesting combination since one high Finnish award and right next to it foreign.. I mean if the recipient was Finnish!

Yes, the bigger one with Carelian coat of arms/Carelian Guards shoulder device is some sort of souvenir from re-union, parade or similar!

Cheers,

Miikka

Thanks for the info Leigh !

-Miikka

Thx Michael !

Do you know any "ballpark market price range" for these? I've not been able to find any reference prices from the net...

Cheers,

Miikka

...same as previous but bit more worn

Do these look ok?

Thanks,

Miikka

..and then gently used..

Hello all,

As a newbie in this area all help is welcomed...

Are these three legit manufacturers marks?

First unissued one

Hi Noor!

Long time no see ;o)

What is the other ribbon on your first pic?

Yes, your second bar has system that is not very common. All I've seen are like yours, something is missing.. Most likely like British cap badges with lugs: pushed through fabric and then secured with pins or one long pin!