JohanH

Here we have a really nice piece with a miniature of Litteris et Artibus medal:

I don't know if these have been shown here before:

1 hour ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

@JohanH

Hello Johan,

 

The Personalakte of Dr. Hellmut Heim (medical officer) says that he was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Royal Swedish Order of the North Star on 26 June 1936. The German approval date is 12 August 1936.

 

Can you please tell me if the class is the Knight's Cross 1st or 2nd Class?

Also, is the award date correct?

 

Thanks!

Hello!

I havn't transcribed the North Star Order yet so I had to check the original roll. 

Here is his entry:

Knight cross on June 26th 1936. 

Before 1975 there was only one class of the knight order. In 1975 they instituted the 2nd class. 

Thanks!

I will try to send them a request!

The Swedish archive is also like that. Sometimes they don't reply at all, sometimes they send the information free and sometimes they want a charge. One time they wanted me to pay 0,3 € for a copy fee.

On 27/03/2024 at 18:50, hucks216 said:

The only way to obtain information about him, assuming he didn't win any high awards, is to request a copy of his service record from Bundesarchiv:

 

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Artikel/Artikel-ausserhalb-der-Navigation/Hinweise-milit-Unterlagen-persbez/benutzen-hinweise-militaerische-unterlagen-persbezogen-en.html

Thank you for a very quick response. 

Do you have any idea of how much it costs to get a persons service record?

Would it be best to find a researcher to do it or to let the archive personnel do it?

Hello!

Is there any way to find any information about Feldwebel Martin Herrnbrodt, born April 6th 1913?

A google search turns up a person with the same name who received the Iron cross 1st class and was apparently a member of the Luftwaffe. But I don´t know if it is the same person. 

The one I am looking for got the Finnish Medal of Liberty 2nd class on July 7th 1942. 

2 hours ago, Alexboorlove said:

Colleagues, I ask for help in identifying the boutonniere, it was bought in Belgium, a Google photo search did not give anything, maybe someone has already encountered a similar item

I believe it is a religious badge related to The Salesians of Don Bosco.

Search on google for the motto praeit ac tuetur and you can find similar badges. 

16 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

This is what I have for Anton Friedrich Victor Valois, any additions or corrections would be great:

 

1 October 1859 Volontair-Cadett (Officer Candidate)

10 December 1859 Seekadett (Officer Cadet)

Summer 1863 Fähnrich zur See (2nd Lieutenant)

... rank was renamed Unterlieutenant zur See on 19 July 1864

29 August 1866 Lieutenant zur See (1st Lieutenant)

25 January 1870 Capitain-Lieutenant (Lieutenant Captain)

20 July 1875 Korvettenkapitän (Corvette Captain – Lieutenant Commander) without Patent (ernannt)

... later received a patent from 15 March 1875

17 December 1881 Kapitän zur See (Captain at Sea – Captain)

1 April 1889 Kontre-Admiral (Rear Admiral)

10 October 1892 Vize-Admiral (Vice Admiral)

27 January 1912 Charakter als Admiral (Honorary Admiral)

 

War Commemorative Medal of 1864 (Kriegs-Denkmünze für 1864; KD64)

War Commemorative Medal of 1870–1871 (Kaiserliche Kriegsdenkmünze 1870/71; KD70/71)

Royal Norwegian Order of Saint Olav, Knight's Cross (NO3)

... later re-categorized as Knight's Cross 1st Class (NO3a)

Prussian Long Service Cross for 25 years (Königlich Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz)

Red Eagle Order (Roter Adlerorden), 4th Class

Prussian Order of the Crown (Kronenorden), 3rd Class with Swords

Red Eagle Order, 3rd Class with the Bow (mit der Schleife)

Prussian Order of the Crown, 2nd Class with Swords on Ring

Red Eagle Order, 2nd Class with Oak Leaves

Star to his Prussian Order of the Crown 2nd Class with Swords on Ring

Oldenburg House and Merit Order of Duke Peter Frederick Louis (Oldenburgischer Haus- und Verdienstorden des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig), Grand Cross of Honour (Ehren-Großkreuz; OV1)

Princely Waldeck Military Merit Cross, 1st Class (WV1)

Star to his Red Eagle Order 2nd Class with Oak Leaves

Prussian Centenary Medal 1897 (Zentenarmedaille)

Order of the Crown of Romania, Grand Cross (RumK1)

Prussian Order of the Crown, 1st Class with Swords on Ring

 

 

The Norwegian order in 1873. Unfortunately I can only find the year, not the date. 

5 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Hello,

Is 15 April 1944 the correct award date for Werner Stichling's Finnish Order of the Cross of Liberty 1st Class with Swords?

Because his Personalakte has the award date 19 May 1944. This could be the German approval date.

Thanks!

Yes. That is the correct date, April 15th 1944.

BTW, there will be published a book about Finnish awards to Germans in 1941-1944. But it will probably not be finished until next year. 

5 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Thank you Johan!

The date for the 1st class is 9 April 1940, correct?

Yes. that is correct. 

And the 2nd class is October 30th.

6 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

@JohanH

Hello Johan,

Back in 2022 you said that Werner Steffan was awarded the Commander's Cross 1st Class of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword on 30 October 1936.

 

However, his Personalakte reveals different information (please see the document below) :

 

- Commander's Cross 2nd Class of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword on 25 November 1936 (this date should be the German approval date)

- Star to the Commander's Cross of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword (i.e. the Commander's Cross 1st Class) sometime in 1939 or 1940.

 

Could you please double check the award rolls and see if Steffan was actually awarded the 2nd Class on 30 October 1936 and then the 1st Class sometime in 1939 or 1940?

 

Thanks!

2nd class on 1936-10-30

1st class on 1940-04-09

2 minutes ago, Deutschritter said:

Maybe JohanH could find the NN1 date for Admiral z. D. Otto von Diederichs? Thanks! 

I'm sorry but I have no information about that order, Order of Orange-Nassau, Grand Cross (NN1).

I'm mostly interested in Swedish and Finnish medals and orders. 

6 hours ago, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

I just recently spotted 👇and nabbed it!

 

 

It came from a dealer who buys up collections and is not shy to say ‘copy’ if he should, so I went for it.

 

I got it for £14, I was the only bidder 🤷‍♂️
 

Maybe the lack of date, swords & ribbon put people off but luckily I found this thread and that settled it for me.

 

& I was in fact expecting a silver one because the photo lighting wasn’t great (or was my 👀) so happy days so far 😊

 

 

 

 

Is this one of the S&L manufactured examples discussed above? 3rd class?

 

That was my guess…

 

Any comments welcome as always Gents.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

 

ps it’s the first Finnish award I’ve got 😊

 

pps

Dave,

I’ve not found a makers mark on it 👍

 

It certainly looks like one of the German made crosses. 

Yes, it is a 3rd class cross. 

31 minutes ago, Deutschritter said:

Thank you, Johan! But there is something strange. In the Rangliste 1818, 1822 and so on, he was noted with the SS3, the normal Knight's Cross. But in the Rangliste 1847 (pictures), for example, he is noted with the SS3a (Knight of the Grand Cross 1st Class), not the SS3c (Knight's Cross). Maybe he was somehow upgraded? Have you ever seen a case like this? 

 

 

 

On 26 March 1810, he left the Mecklenburg service and three months later joined the Guard Cuirassier Regiment of the Saxon Army. On the side of France, the Saxon troops took part in the Russian campaign of 1812. During this time, Forstner served as Napoleon Bonaparte's orderly officer (Ordonnanzoffizier). In this position, he took part in the battles of Borodino, Smolensk, Kaluga, Vitebsk, Krasnoi and Marislovitz. Napoleon personally awarded him the Knight's Cross of the Legion of Honor in Moscow on 18 August 1812. By the beginning of March 1813, Forstner was promoted to 1st lieutenant before resigning from the Saxon Army on 15 May 1813. He could no longer be responsible for fighting for the French and now also against the Germans.

I have double-checked the award roll and there was noone with the name von Forstner or anything close to that name who got the Knight grand cross. So I guess it's a typo or something. Perhaps he decided to "upgrade it himself" if he thought a regular knights cross was to low class for him? I have seen that a few times when people wear a higher class than they were awarded. 

Since so very few of these crosses was awarded I doubt there are any awards not listed in the award rolls. 

I have also checked my lists of commander crosses and he wasn't upgraded to that either. 

Great!

I have updated my list with the correct name. 

Before 1889 there was only one grade of Knight in the Order of the Sword. Everyone who held the knight rank in 1889 was automatically "upgraded" to knight 1st class. 

And as you mention there was also a special grade, Knight with the Grand Cross in two classes. It was very rarely awarded, last time was in 1942 to Mannerheim. Before him it was Napoleon III in 1861. So it is an extremely rare award. 

von Forstner only got the normal knights cross, not the knight of the grand cross.  

13 minutes ago, Deutschritter said:

Gentlemen, this is what I have for Karl Gottfried Friedrich Peter Freiherr von Forstner (1790–1857), if anyone can add anything, that would be great:

 

Knight of the Legion of Honour (FEL5/FE5) on 18 August 1812

Mecklenburg Military Merit Medal for 1813/1815 (MMV) in Gold

Swedish Order of the Sword, Knight's Cross (SS3)

... Later classified as SS3a, Knight Grand Cross First Class.[9] Normally, SS3a stands for Knight's Cross 1st Class, In the event of war, there was a separate decoration (created 1788), the Knights of the Grand Cross of the Order of the Sword, 1st and 2nd Class, which was only awarded for merit against the enemy. The medal could also be awarded in the event of a serious wound or when an enemy victory symbol (e.g. flag) was captured.

Iron Cross (1813), 2nd Class

Prussian War Commemorative Medal for the Wars of Liberation (Kriegsdenkmünze für die Befreiungskriege)

Russian Order of St. George, 5th Class (RG5) in September 1823

Red Eagle Order (Roter Adlerorden), 4th Class (PRAO4/PrA4)

Prussian Long Service Cross for 25 years (Königlich Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz; DA)

Red Eagle Order, 3rd Class with the Bow

Knight (Ritter; Rr) of the Johanniter-Orden in September 1841

Hesse House Order of the Golden Lion, Grand Cross (CHL1) in June 1845

Red Eagle Order, 2nd Class with Oak Leaves in January 1846

 

 

The closest match I can find in my list is a Captain from Mecklenburg-Schwerin with the name Forster who got the Knight cross of the Order of the Sword on February 2nd 1814. Could that be your von Forstner with the name misspelled in the roll?

What was his rank in 1814?

37 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

@FRE_A_K

 

For Karl-Jesko von Puttkamer I have the following:

- Finnish Order of the Cross of Liberty 2nd Class with Oak Leaves and Swords (11 June 1942)

 

Can you perhaps confirm the class, additions (Oak Leaves and Swords) and the award date?

 

Thanks!

He got the oakleaves as can be seen below. 

Thanks for your reply!

I am quite certain that my piece is real but I believe it is a much later version than the one Weitze is selling. His piece is probably much older and therefore of better quality (as almost everything is).

Here is a piece from 2012. 

17 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Hmmm, interesting, never heard of it. What are the prerequisites for bestowal?

Honestly, I have no idea. There is very little information to be found online about it. 

I got in a deal among some other medals. That's why I am looking to sell it. 

The only other one I have seen is the one Weitze has for sale for an extremely high price. 

But he does have a pic of the statues (I guess, my school german isn't very good).

Perhaps someone more fluent than me can read it and give me (us) a summary?

Sächsische St.Heinrichs-Nadel mit Krone - Sachsen Königreich - Auszeichnungen deutscher Staaten bis 1933 - Militaria / Helmut Weitze

A little off topic perhaps....

But here is the "modern" (post 1918) version of the St Henry order. 

Instituted in 1963 and as I understand it only 33 members of the order is allowed. The needle is to be returned upon the death of the recipient. So it should be very very rare. 

If anyone is interested in it, send me a PM. I consider all offers. 

I have looked in "När och hur böra ordnar bäras" from 1929 and also in the 1943 version and they both describe the classes are commander 1st class / 2nd class and knight 1st class / 2nd class. 

In 1975 the Swedish orders became dormant. 

I guess the Order chancellery should have the correct names.

But I personally like to call it 2nd class just to be sure there are no mix up about what class is meant.  

32 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

I have no idea. It's possible. But I would think they would use the official names for the classes in the award rolls?

What about award documents?

Do you have some examples for the Commander 2nd Class and Knight 2nd Class?

I think the actual award documents should have the most accurate information.

I have this example for Hans Kolbe's Order of Vasa (Knight 2nd Class).

It says Wasa Orden andra Klassen?

I have just a few award documents for commander classes and none for knight 2nd class. 

Vasaorder:

Kommendör andra klass 1888

Kommendör andra klass 1902

North star order:

Kommendör första klass 1939

Kommendör andra klass 1908

Your document is very nice! Let me know if you ever decide to sell it. 

And yes, it does say knight 2nd class, one of 1470 awarded...

When looking in the original award roll the classes are as following:

Kommendörer med stora korset av Kungliga Svärdsorden (Commander with the grand cross of the Royal order of the Sword)

Riddare med stora korset av Kungliga Svärdsorden, första klassen (Knight with the grand cross of ......, 1st class)

Riddare med stora korset av Kungliga Svärdsorden, andra klassen (Knight with the grand cross of ......, 2nd class) Not in the roll since it wasn´t awarded but it theoretically existed. 

Kommendörer av Kungliga Svärdsorden, första klassen (Commander of the......, 1st class)

Kommendörer av Kungliga Svärdsorden, andra klassen (Commander of the ......, 2nd class)

Riddare av Kungliga Svärdsorden, första klassen (Knight of the ....., 1st class)

Riddare av Kungliga Svärdsorden, andra klassen (Knight of the ....., 2nd class)

But in the statecalendar or other publications they are listed as KSO1kl (Commander 1st class) or just KSO (commander 2nd class). 
 

The same is valid for both the Order of Vasa and Order of the North Star (except for the Riddare med Stora korset, that was a special grade of the Order of the Sword). 

Could it be that they wrote out all the classes in the roll to minimize the risk of errors? 

The bottom stickpin is from Poland. 
from Związek Młodzieży Wiejskiej

Yes, either that or the date when the germans approved it.