XEN

And of course it may not have been made as a deliberate fake to deceive people. Badges have been made as copies for re-enactors & films costumes for many years, in which case the reverse would not need marking.

Xen,

As the H.J. & D.J. were both Gliederungen der NSDAP, surley all of their insignia & Leistungsabzeichen had to be RZM marked under the order of Dec 20th 1934? Am I correct in thinking that these badges up to the silver grade were introduced in 1936 which would discount any transitional pieces? And the gold (shown at the start of the thread was 1941, even later......

Cheers

Don

Hi Don,

I've just been having a look at this and have found a couple of references which seem to add a new angle.

"HJ im Dienst" 1935 first edition 352p (there were at least 6 editions of this book. Edition 6 is marked as such on first page and I'm assuming that each successive edition was also marked. This would mean that I am looking at the first edition) shows three classes :

Anf?ngerklasse

Ausbildungsklasse

Sonderklasse

This early book is showing the existence of all of the classes which remained extant certainly until the end of 1942 (I have a HJ shooting book showing that a boy passed the Sonderklasse in November of that year). The terms Scharfsch?tze (silver grade) and Meistersch?tze (gold grade) would seem to be a revision made in the later years of the war (I have recently seen a HJ shooting book from 1943 showing this change).

Angolia states that the Ausbildungsklasse (silver wreath) was introduced in 1938 with the Sonderklasse (gold wreath) following in 1941. He doesn't sadly give a period reference and I don't have any to hand which talk specifically about these badges but if we take "HJ im Dienst" as a reference then we can see that all classes of the badge at least were in existence in 1935. It would then logically follow that the accompanying badges may also have been in existence. Why have three classes but only one badge? Odd....

Do you have a period reference for the introduction of the silver class Don? That would certainly give an answer to the question of whether there were indeed three different badges in 1935 as implied by "HJ im Dienst".

So, the (theoretical) logical conclusion is that a Sonderklasse badge could exist without RZM markings having possibly been made just prior to the introduction of the RZM at the end of 1934. This however means nothing without proof and anyway I would still expect to see a GES GESCH at least... The badge does look nicely aged though and, apart from the missing markings, strangely authentic which prevents me from saying 'definite fake' without proof.

Hello Gentlemen,

Did I glabe that it some things not indicate corresponded that if a counterfeiter makes itself already the effort to

imitate such a batch, why brings it then not also another RZM or a manufacturer mark to the rules?

(Hope that my translation-program did right?!?!)

student

You have a point of course. Why would someone fake the badge but somehow forget to add the MM? It is a moot point though because without proof that the badge existed in this configuration during the TR period your badge is always going to be in question. A rare badge such as the Meistersch?tze is deserving of some research so please let us know how you get on if you uncover some new information.

Reverse

This badge is going to need rock-solid provenance before being accepted as an original. No RZM and no MM - not good....

Thanks Medalnet. I do not know much about this badge, however I would strongly expect to see an RZM mark & number on the reverse

Yes, I'd agree with you there Don. These are rare badges Medalnet. I've seen various figures for the amount awarded but all were within the range 500-600. It would certainly be worthwile for someone to fake them. I can't say whether your friend's badge is a fake but as Don says, the lack of RZM mark is certainly very worrying.

Hi Joe,

Interesting strap When I saw it my first thought was 'what's that rank doing on that type of strap?' According to Angolia the rank of Oberkameradschaftsf?hrer wasn't introduced until 1938 so a conscientious HJ boy who dressed according to the then current regulations shouldn't really have been wearing this rank on those shoulder straps. Then again there would seem to have been a short cross-over where the rank existed for a short time within the period where the khaki straps were still in official use. Perhaps this would explain the rank being on these straps.

HJ-Gebiet 23 (Mittelbe) was formed in late 1934 so certainly that is correct for these straps but... the Oberbanne (shown on the straps by the piping - in this case red for Oberbann 1) were dissolved in mid-1934. I can't find a reference which says that after the dissolution of the Oberbanne that all shoulder straps were to have red piping. Only this would explain why this boy was still wearing these straps as late as 1938 - four years after the Oberbanne ceased to exist.

Motor-HJ is incorrect as only the black post-1938 straps began to show distinctions between the various HJ organisations - Flieger-HJ, Motor-HJ etc.

So, after all that I would say in conclusion that this is a strap for a HJ-Oberkameradschaftsf?hrer on the staff of Gebiet 23 Mittelelbe and dates from sometime between Mid-1934 and 1938.

Hope this helps.

Yep, here it is. This is the best result I can get without glare from the flash ruining the picture. The gold wash has worn away partially but is still visible between the oak leaves on the outer wreath and on some of the leaves.

Hi, I don't like the look of this one. Can you post a picture of the reverse? I have a M1/63 Meistersch?tze and there are many differences when comparing it to the badge shown here. Don will be able to give you a definitive answer though I'm sure

This could be the emblem for this girl's local Schwimmverein (swimming club).

Cheers Don. It's very frustrating when I have to take 10 pictures of something just to get one half-decent one at the end. I could just buy a decent camera but that would tie up valuable resources which could be spent on something much better

Any more pictures of the actual item in wear would be appriceated.I would also caution against trying to judge size in pictures buy rule of thumb of finger, not a very precise and acurate way of taking measurements

With respect, the dimensions of the sports shirt/BDM jacket/bathing cap patch are well documented and were never in doubt. The point I was trying to make was that Bob has introduced a generally unknown patch into the discussion. If this patch exists it would be useful to see some kind of period evidence and some dimensions. I agree that the picture I posted to show the rough dimensions is unscientific but as we all agree that Tom's patch is a standard patch with standard dimensions this makes the picture academic anyway. Nevertheless, period pictures are always useful.

The way I see it Bob could clear this confusion up in an instant if he posted pictures and dimensions of the patch he mentioned in post #5. If he chooses not to do so well that's fine, no problem

.

Here is another. Unfortunately this is the best quality my camera can produce

..and with shutter down:

Nice pic

Here is another scan from the same book. One of these would have stood in the Gefolgschaft or F?hnlein leader's office.

My apologies Colin if my comments came across as being some kind of disagreement about these patches. It isn't and can't be as I totally agree with you!

I have never seen the special patch mentioned by Bob Coleman in post #5 and that is what my comments and the above photos are about. I'm just saying that it would be helpful if he showed one in wear in a period photo. I didn't like having to pussy-foot around the issue but experience has shown me that the direct approach isn't always the best option in online discussions..

I have a reference somewhere for the bathing cap shown by Kev above. I'll try and find it now.

I thought I'd post this in case anyone needs something to do this winter

These display cases had a dual purpose. Firstly to inform the general public about the current activities of the local HJ units and secondly as a method of distributing information to these units. The contents would have consisted of orders and general information (upcoming events etc). Usage of the display cases was dictated by the size of the local units. In rural areas a centrally-located case was shared between HJ, BDM, DJ and JM. In towns or cities or areas with Gefolgschaft (and equivalent) strength there would have been individual cases for each organisation. The cases were were not permitted to be located centrally i.e. a line of them attached to the wall outside a HJ-Heim or other location. They were designed to be spread around the town and were for outdoor use. Local HJ units were required to organise a roster which ensured that the display cases were kept clean and that the contents were always current.

The RJF determined the design and stipulated that all cases be constructed as shown on the attached drawing.

This particular drawing was scanned from 'Dienstvorschrift - Ausgabe DJ F?hrerschaft. Gebiet 19 Hochland' and is dated March 1941.

If anyone would like a bigger version of the graphic just let me know.

XEN

Just a quick correction/addition to my last post:

I said: "It would be nice to see this smaller patch with different construction. I haven't seen one so a period photo would be a great help"

What I actually meant was period evidence for the existence of a special patch for the sports shirt as mentioned in post #5 above. It would be very useful to see such evidence as I am presently unaware of these patches. I hope that makes things clearer

Quick edit to add another picture which shows the patch on a sports shirt. I have drawn two lines as you can see. With the picture in hand the dimension for both is 19mm therefore both items are the same size give or take a millimetre or two. If I measure my own hand across the same point as shown on the picture it comes out at 93mm or 3.7" (my girlfriend's hand came out at 90mm). This matches exactly with the patch shown by Tom Y . Given that the Tom's patch is the same size and of the same construction as that shown in the picture here I think we can safely say that they are one and the same. So, the patch shown was worn on sports shirts but... in order to establish whether this patch was worn on both the sports shirt AND the BDM-Jacket (which I believe) we need someone with an authentic BDM-jacket with the patch still in situ. I don't collect uniforms so it would be really useful if someone who does could post the dimensions of any in situ patches they have. Let's see if we can clear this one up.

Cheers, XEN

I have a few of these diamonds (all in used condition). No two are the same size but they all average out at 3 1/2" to 3 3/4" and match the example posted by Tom Y. This size of diamond was used on both the BDM-jacket and the sports shirt. One of the diamonds came from a BDM member and was removed (by her) from the sports shirt she wore whilst taking part in the Breslau games in 1938. I'll dig through the photos and post a couple later if required but the quality isn't too good. In the meantime though I have attached a scan of the front page of 'Unsere Fahne' from 1939. If you mentally transport the patch from the middle girl's chest onto her arm I think this shows that the patches are the same size.

It would be nice to see this smaller patch with different construction. I haven't seen one so a period photo would be a great help.

Quick edit as I forgot the picture first time around.

With respect I don't agree with sweeping statements like 'this is what they should look like' in connection with this badge. The Distinguished Foreigner falls into the category of badges where much doubt exists as to whether the brown with no MM is indeed the only 'real' version. Collectors believe in this version as it is the only type with anything approaching provenance. For me at least this does not necessarily mean that other colours are bogus. Some collectors talk about the other colours being 1970s UK fakes. Some others talk about them being found on TR period salesmens' sample boards. I believe enough doubt exists for us to be able to view sweeping statements like the one above with caution.

Sadly, I doubt whether the collector in question will ever be back here to give a detailed answer which relates directly to the points raised in this thread. I also absolutely garantee that he will remain closed to any view other than his own. Sad really and not conducive to getting a forum up and running.

Thank you for the welcome Paul As I've said, Bob's experience wasn't the issue for me. I agree that we should never lose our ability to question and explore.

gents please all get backin your prams

I'm back in but I left my teddy in the corner.

Well thanks for your detailed reply railhouse....

FAKE too the day i can finds proof regards tomas F.T.W

Exactly... I would suggest that you wait until you ACTUALLY have the proof before sounding off about it next time. As you know there are many HJ items which cannot be 100% positively attributed or identified as authentic originals. I agree that the table medals fall into this category and as I said to you back then - some like them, some don't. Your mistake was to bombard me with unfriendly and unsolicited PMs in which you attempted to force your 'expertise' on me. You admit that you STILL don't know whether they are fake or real so I'm having a bit of a problem understanding what you were trying to achieve. I am as happy to have them as I am to have the printed armband because doubt exists about their authenticity which makes them cheap. I'm happy to buy little items like these every now and again and see them more as a project in progress rather than as a part of my collection.

Your second mistake was to bring something I said to you in a PM into this discussion. How long I've been collecting is irrelevant as I'm not the one stamping around the internet forcing my opinions on others. I devote a lot of time to this hobby but I only give advice when I'm sure of the answer and I try to do this in a friendly manner. In the last six months I've met some really friendly and knowledgeable people from whom I've learned a lot and I'm very grateful for that.

What I said originally about the armband which started this thread was NOT advice. I was talking theory.

Collecting time is relative: for all I know you might have spent your 'years of collecting' talking to the wrong people so telling me that you have a right to dispense your 'knowledge' based on a time span totally and utterly fails to impress me because I have absolutely no idea who you are.

And finally to Bob, I totally agree that an ex-HJ boy can be lead into giving the answer the collectors want to hear. However, and again, this is only a theory - with something like an armband which he would have touched often and looked at with pride it is possible that he would at least be able to remember if it were totally flat and smooth as opposed to raised due to the patch. This possibility combined with ambiguous statements like the one I mentioned from 'Angolia' just make me think that it should be discussed.

Hm if some one have collected for 40 years i belived we need their opinions. I have collected HJ items some years now but i never seen any orginal printed armbands and i have not seen any prof that they have exsisted regards tomas ps XEN if some one have started to collect HJ in july this year and dident know any thing at that time how can you be some expert after 6 month

Ah Railhouse. Well all your years of experience haven't yet been able to convince you whether those HJ table medals you have in your collection are real or not have they? If I were a suspicious person then I'd be suspicious about whether you were here because I refused to take your unsolicited (and frankly very unfriendly) 'advice' when I bought mine on Estand.

If you read the thread again you'll see that I showed respect for Bob's experience at all times. This stopped when he climbed onto 'Belligerent', his dappled grey high horse, and started lambasting me for daring to think differently to him. I then became unfriendly. I call that fair.

You said: 'XEN if some one have started to collect HJ in july this year and dident know any thing at that time how can you be some expert after 6 month'

Answer: I never claimed anything of the sort either here or anywhere else! Did YOU just start buying things without having a clue what you were doing? No, of course not. I spent a long time getting as much information as possible before I ever opened my wallet. Yes, I still got stung twice but who didn't get stung when they first started out?

I'm a nice person and am always happy to help when I can but basically I just don't like puffed-up, pompous people in any sphere of life so hey, live with it.

I have some thoughts on the subject, but after reading the above, why bother.

--dj--Joe

LOL I was thinking exactly that while I was reading his post.

Unfortunately I'm going to HAVE to answer him. Bob, your experience isn't what this thread is about. By shouting, and yes, you ARE shouting - the giveaway being that you seem perfectly capable of reading our posts despite saying that you have to write in big letters when answering because of your failing eyesight. Why don't you write big first and then convert back to small once you're happy with the result? Upload at that point and no-one will misunderstand you.

So anyway, by shouting at us, or rather, shouting down at us you aren't doing yourself any favours. I've only just joined this site and almost the first person I meet (you) starts bellowing at me for daring to suggest that a sentence in a book could be read in one of two ways. Read back - THAT is what our discourse was about. Now you seem to have turned it into a bout of 'I'm the expert here!' self-justification. Yes, your experience is important, especially to you clearly, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking beyond the text-book answer. Oh I could really get this one going by starting a new thread entitled 'So, this HJ badge for Distinguished Foreigners - Did it really only come in brown originally?'

I agree with what you say about leading questions etc when asking ex-HJ about equipment etc. These old men shouldn't be completely disregarded though should they? You seem to be suggesting that their age precludes them from giving any valuable information at all. How old are you by the way?

Edited to add a bit...