Ian

Hi Chris,

Your tutorial/expose on the various Legion badges is fantastic and very much appreciated. 

Fantastic and I think you are spot on....Württemberg Cross with swords.

Regards,

Ian

I am hoping some one may be able to assist me with the 'kreuz' that Major I.V.d.E. Rudolf Eichelter is wearing from his jacket button hole.   I suspect it is a non Austro-Hungarian award.  I apologise for the poor quality, but I can't make the picture any clearer.

Christian,

A little of topic but I am wondering if you have any information on the individual awards to either  ÖBH Generalstabsärzte Johann Richter (21.10.1865 - 06. 1961) or ÖBH Generalstabsärzte Maximilian Haager ( 04.01.1871 – 24.03.1934) in particular post was Heller Commission awards please?

Regards,

Ian

It is an Austro-Hungarian (Austrian) patriotic badge.

Christian,

Excellent and thank you.  

Ian

I couldn't locate any 'war time' awards in my photo data base to amplify the point. 

I am reasonably certain that it would make little if any difference, but others, more knowledgeably, may be able to clarify the issue. 

Yes, the EKO-R3 proceeded the FJO-R.  

FML Julius Carossa - Austrian National Archives

A small sample those awarded the EKO-R3 and an FJO-R that I was able to locate.

FML Gustav Szekely de Doba

FML Franz Ritter Weiss-Tihanyi von Mainprugg

FML Viktor Serverus Edler von Laubenfeld und Ciminago

FML Karl Wondre Edler von Carynskie

GM Nikloaus Karapancsa Edler von Kraina

GM Gustav Fisher Edler von POturzyn

GM Karl Petersilka Edler von Hocbergen

PS: There are others who received the EKO-R2 and an FJO-R.  For example, FML Georg Komma, FML Franz Szends von Fulekkelecseny and GM Adam Nowotny.

I assume you are talking about the EKO-R3 and the FJO-R?                                                   I can provide two names of those whom were awarded an EKO-R3 and an FJO-R.

Feldmarschalleutnant Theodor Ritter von Soretic and Feldmarschalleutnant Alfred Groschl.  

There are others and I will look through my references today.

Cheers,

Ian

Just a thought, but perhaps the  Nazarenes refused to carry/use arms (conscientious objectors) and only served (under protest) as non combatants and therefore the various authorities deemed them to be unworthy of a 'Front Line' service award such as the Karl Truppen Kreuz.  As I said just a thought.

Graham,

I second your comment regarding the well done to Utgardloki.

tifes,

I think we are on the same page, but just reached via different paths.  

For the time being I will put Theodor Soretic in the maybe/maybe not column.

Ian

Christian,

Thank you for your input and I apologise for mentioning you without providing a 'heads up'.

You have provided some very interesting talking points, and I admit that whilst 400 FMLs is a huge number,  Tibor Balla does go on to list them all. Some had no impact, involvement nor participation in WW I, my point was, although poorly explained, was to highlight that not all (possibly over 65%) of Austro Hungarian FMLs received and EK II during the 1914 - 1918 period.

I also hope Glenn can chime in with even more salient points.

As always I am more than happy tom be corrected. Knowledge is to be shared and not kept a secret.

Regards,

Ian

Hi tifes,

Short response to your post.

Your figure of 119 active Feldmarschalleutnants, plus 4 ‘Titular und Charakter’ is correct but you have not included the 124-war activated FMLs. Additionally, there are another 160 FMLs, who were promoted to the rank and/or fulfilled some wartime role between July 1914 and Nov/Dec 1918 and are not listed in the 1918 Rangliste, yet they can be found in the various year Ranglisten.

My Sources:                                                                                                                           Schematimus der k.u.k. Heer und fur der ku.k. Kriegsmarine 1914; Hof-und Staatsdruckerei 1914 1914                                                                                                     Rangliste der k.u.k. Heer 1916; Hof-und Staatsdruckerei 1916                                            Rangliste der k.u.k. Heer 1917; Hof-und Staatsdruckerei 1917                                           Rangliste der k.u.k. Heer 1918; Hof-und Staatsdruckerei 1918                                                                        

Schematismus der Generale und Obersten der K.u.k. Armee (Stand 31 Dezember 1918), Jorg Steiner, Edition S & H 1992                                                                                                                                                                                         

A Nagy Haborou osztrak-magyar tabornokal: Altabornagvok, Dr, Balla Tibor, HM HadtortentiIntezet es Muzuem, Budapest 2019  (I am happy to provide you with some sample pages if you are interested)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Alt-Österreichs Heerführer. Stellenbesetzung in Heer, Landwehr und Kriegsmarine 1541 bis 1918. Self-Published:  Geoerg Zivkovic, Vienna, (Available on-line from the Kriegsarchiv Vienna Austria)

Regimentsinhaber und-Kommandanten des k.u.k. Heeres und der k.k. Landwehr: (1880) 1898-1918 Self-Published; Georg Zivkovic, Vienna 1977 (Available on-line from the Kriegsarchiv Vienna Austria)

As for your points on the awarding of the EK I and EK II I do not have enough knowledge to debate the point . My knowledge has come from the various sources I have listed and I note that only one source (Balla Tibor) has provided a list on non Austrian awards.  

We probably need some one like Christian1962  or Glenn Jewison to comment. 

Regards,

Ian

AN update on the awarding of the EK II to FMLs.  Of the 407 Officers who served as FMLs during the period 1914-1918 approx 40 received both classes of the EK, whilst approx 138  received the EK II only. 

From these figures I would suggest that the award of the EK II to Austro-Hungarian FMLs was not a low award. Remembering of course that some/a lot of the FMLs with the EKII probably received it as Generalmajors.

tifes,

Dr. Tibor Balla's excellent book (A Nagy Haboru osztrak-magyar tabornokai:Altabornagyok) on the Austro-Hungarian FML's meticulously lists the non Austro-Hungarian awards to the FML's and he does not list FML Soretic (pages 451/452) with an EK II.  Does that mean FML Soretic didn't receive and EK II possibly not, but to me, it does cast a doubt regarding the two men  being one in the same.

I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment on the EK II being a 'low award' for a General, but I believe that the Prussians were very strict in awarding an EK II.  Before the recipient could be awarded and EK I (even tough sometimes they awarded both simultaneously) they had to hold the EK II.   

I will spend the afternoon putting together a rough estimate of the number of FML's who were awarded and EK I versus the number awarded an EK II versus no award of an EK.  That should tell us something regarding the significance of the EK and Austro-Hungarian Generals.

Good morning,

there is a reasonable resemblance, but overnight checking has revealed that FML Soretic did not receive a Prussian Iron Cross II class, where as my man has one so the chances of them being the same man have diminished in my opinion.

First photo belongs to me. 

Regards,

Ian

I have tried enlarging the photos to see if I can obtain a clearer view, but unfortunately not clear enough to make a positive finding.  However, I am starting to believe that tifes may be correct and my mystery FML is Theodor Ritter von Soretic, although I can not find any evidence that FML Soretic received a Prussian Iron Cross 2nd class.

Tifes,

Wow! and thanks, these are the first photos I have seen of FML Theodor Soretic.  It is very hard to tell if the photos match, but what you have provided is an excellent starting point.

Cheers,

ian   

Tifes,

I also think Theodor Soretic could be the man I am searching for, but alas I have not been able to locate a photo of him for comparison purposes.

Ian

Hi Tifes,

Eduard Ritter Jemrich bears a passing resemblance, but notice the ears..they don't match.  Additionally his awards  don't match my mystery man.   I would hazard a guess and say the search continues, but thank you for your comment.

Regards,

Ian

Yep, those ears are unique and that is why I thought he would be easily identifiable.....obviously a wrong thought on my part ?

Hi Graham,

I appreciate the response and yes, he does bear a resemblance to Johann Salis-Seewis, but unfortunately the orders and decorations of my FML do not match those of Feldzeugmeister Salis-Seewis.  Also, note the ears on my guy, which are very unusual and they don't match Salis-Seewis's ears.

Regards,

Ian

Dear members,

I have had the attached photo for a number of years and thought (wrongly as it turns out) that I had posted it on the GMIC forum previously. I had not.

My FML has what I feel are a unique set of Orders ans decorations for identification purposes.  I and a couple of other people I have showed it to thought it was FML Georg Komma, but after I received a copy of Balla Tibor's great book on Austro-Hungarian Feldmarschalleutnants it turns out that my photo and the photo Tibor has produced in his book are nothing alike. Hmm! back to the drawing board.

I have trawled through the 1914 -1918 rank lists in the hope of identifying my man, but not one that I can see matches his awards exactly.  One of the closet is Generalmajor Nikolaus Karapansca Edler von Kraina. 

The awards as best I can make out are for my mystery FML are: 

EKO-2, LO-R, FJO-R (peace time ribbon), MVK-3 (KD), MVK-3, Kreigsmedaille or an STM 1, D2/D3, Wound Medal or Bosnian Medal, JM 98, JK 08, MK 13 and an EK II (happy to be corrected)

Does anyone recognise my mystery FML.

Regards,

Ian