LuckySlevin

On 02/09/2019 at 13:00, waldo said:

Servus Graham, 

For all original 3rd classes, the flames must be extra and not cast 
with the cross body. Also with the silver gilt pieces. 

I do not see it exactly in this piece. If the flames were not 

mounted extra, then it is a gold plated 4th grade

regards Walter

3 hours ago, waldo said:

Servus Lucky,
I do not understand your question completely. The MVO was originally 
donated in 5 classes in 1866. Namely the Grand Cross, the Grand Commander, 
the Commander, the Knights 1. These crosses had flames between the arms 
of the cross. Knight 2nd class as well as military merit cross, these 
without flames between the arms of the cross. Another class, 
the Officer's Cross, was created in 1900. This was available with and 
without flames between the arms of the cross.
In terms of ranking, this officer's cross was classified between the 
Commander's Cross and Knight 1. Until then, all classes up to knight 2 
were made in gold, the medallions of the Military Cross of Merit were 
also made in gold. At the end of 1905 this classification was reorganized. 
Grand Cross, 1st class, 2nd class with and without a star, 3rd class and 
4th class with and without a crown as well as the Military Merit Cross 
1st and 2nd class. From 1905 (until the end of 1916) all classes up to 
3rd grade were gold, 4th grade silver with gold medallions on the front 
and back. From the end of 1913, the Military Cross of Merit was donated 
in 3 classes with and without a crown. The 1st class had real gold 
medallions on the front until 1916. From 1917 all classes and medallions 
made in gold were made in gold-plated silver. 
A little difficult and extensive. I'll try to make this classification 
clearer soon.

With friendly greetings

Walter

Dear Waldo, 

Thank you  for your answer. Actually my question is directly related to one of your previous answers. 

If you see a gold-plated 4th class MVO (not speaking about medallions) does this mean that this a consequence of a falsification to pretend it is a 3th class? Or there are other reasons which could lead to having 4th class gold-plated MVO. 

Thank you

13 hours ago, spolei said:

Hello, by order of the Bavarian Ministry of War from beginning of 1917 onwards, awards were only allowed to be made and delivered in gold-plated silver. The main reason for this was to save costs. In Prussia, the awards were changed to gold-plated silver much earlier. The Bavarian bravery medal was also issued silver-gilded. 20 grams of gold was worth a lot of money. With it you could already procure a lot of other armaments.

Thank you for your reply. 

I understand the passage from gold to gold-plated during the war. What I was wondering is the following:

If you see a gold-platted MVO with no separate flames like the ones which were posted before, then this MVO is not a 3rd class. Then the question is, what motivated/what was the reason to apply gold to a 4th class, which does not require gold(except for medallions ) and especially when the gold was scarce? 

Hi all, 

Very informative and interesting thread. 

I wanted to ask a question concerning the gold-platted 4 class MVOs with gold center medallions. 

Is there a specific reason that some of the 4 class MVOs are gold-plated while most are not (both having gold center medallions) ?

Greetings !

I am a very junior collector of German states orders, I will be very grateful if you could give some information about the Saxe Altenburg swords.

I saw on the web that the orders can have 2 types of swords: "Roman" and "French", I join 2 pictures:

I would be very grateful if you can mention the reason of different swords  like different manufactures/ periods. 

Thank you a lot.

Hi, 

I would be very grateful to know your opinions on this order which is currently on ebay:

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Roter-Adler-Orden-4-Klasse-mit-Krone-u-Schwertern/353350257932?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I have no experience on judging the authenticity of war awards so will be happy to know your point of view before trying to bid. 

Also the design of the eagle looks different from the typical ones I find on internet. 

Thank you.

Wow, what a nice bar and interesting story!

Thank you a lot for your replies!

Really nice forum and professional people!

And yes the question concerned the order from ebay.

Hi, 

Could you please tell me if there is a possibility of a combination of the Order of the Crown with No Swords 4th Class with a War Ribbon, ie the ribbon with large black in the center.

Thank you

I did some research on the web and will be very happy to know you opinion about the below:

In terms of the crowns, I found a very interesting discussion on the ak-group.ru forum about different crowns found on the 1st type.

I found an order but of second type which has exactly my type of crown and even all the manufacturing style is the same on emedals:

https://www.emedals.com/europe/romania-kingdom/orders/order-of-michael-the-brave/a-romanian-order-of-michael-the-brave-knight-s-cross-with-case

However the reverse of the order does not look correct:

So not sure, may be they were doing some fakes as this one does not have the right reverse.

I also found 2 orders with same design of crown and suspension on galerie numismatique:

3rd class:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11040790_124-order-michael-the-brave-1916

2nd class:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11040789_123-order-michael-the-brave-1916

Finally just wanted to post 2 orders of 1st and 2nd model with same crowns:

here is an order from 2nd type on emedals:

https://www.emedals.com/europe/romania-kingdom/orders/order-of-michael-the-brave/a-romanian-order-of-michael-the-brave-1941-1944-3d-class

Below it is its crown and also 1 crown from 1st model:

his:

crown from 1st model:

I also found an order with very big crown and suspension:

The crown is different but it has also this suspended style.

What do you think of all of this and do you think that the order I found on galerie numismatique of same design is a fake or not given that I saw on this forum that galerie numismatique does not have a very clear reputation.

Also do you think that my remark about having same type of crown on both models is plausible. 

Thank you!

12 hours ago, Carol I said:

Are there any silver or jeweler hallmarks on the badge or the suspension ring?

The suspension crown is very much like the crowns used for the 1941 model of the order and quite different from the majority of WWI-badges which had more detailed/detached arms. Also, the enamel seem quite rough in comparison to other 1916 model badges.

Unfortunately there is no hallmark. 

Hi Igor, thanks a lot for your reply, yes actually it is from spink. 
I also thought it is not of Romanian production as those are generally not made from silver. French ones are generally made of silver but the designs I found online were different to this one. 

Hi the GMIC community, 

I recently bought an order of Michael the Brave, type 1, 3rd Class in silver and would be very very grateful if you could share your opinion.

1) Do you think it is an authentic order or it is a fake?

2) Do you have any clues whether in terms of the manufacturer or at least the country it was produced in?

Also posting the fixing, which is quite different from the models I find on the internet: