MattGibbs

Could it be Wagner? Thanks Terry. Regards Matt Gibbs

When was that book published incidentally. Its a minefield working out all those editions! LOL. Who is the gauleiter in the photo, because for some reason I cannot place him, but it could be just because it is a painting. I feel sure there will be a caption in the book! If possible I would love a better scan just of that picture because I have not seen it before. PM me if you can send me one by email? Regards Matt Gibbs

Die Kreisleiter der NSDAP in Westfalen und Lippe. Versuch einer Kollektivbiographie mit biographischem Anhang by Wolfgang Stelbrink Anybody seen or got a copy of this book about the Kreisleiters of the Gau Westfalen areas? Regards Matt Gibbs

Matthias; Indeed, it may not be the mistake of a ribbon bar maker/tailor etc. I am agreeing with you, I believe the regulations were clear. As you say this was someones buisness and they had to do things right. Strict regulations may have played a part in it. There was a right way to do things. But as we see from many points of view and in many other bars the regulations were not always adhered to. This is true especially with inter-war era when some peoples individual choice was expressed, the regulations were then tightened down n the 3rd Reich era, but still these anomolies happen. So, why do these bars exist? Is it because the owner requested it this way, for surely the man who had a buisness to protect would have pointed it out to the customer that it was not the "right" way? I suppose "who knows". It could be one of many things. Mind you - do they not say the customer is always right. Is a lowly shopkeeper going to argue with the local Mayor..? How about the local Kreisleiter? All part of the fun of research I suppose. I love the blue enamel on your medal bar! Best wishes Matt Gibbs

Matthias; Thanks for pointing this out, and posting your photos. I have also seen another 2 place bar that was mounted like this, in a photo somewhere online. It was black and white but the differences in shading of the crosses made it look like this. I know too, before anyone else decided to chip in that there are many bars in photos that are done the "correct" way, so I don't know this is any more or less likely to be found one way around or another. I'm viewing this that evidence suggests sometimes things were not done quite regulation. Mind you, although the regs were clear I suppose it wasn't so clear in peoples heads. All the mixtures of awards in order recieved, 3rd reich before this, Imperial before that, chuck the important but not "nazi" awards to the back of the queue! Some of these things are great pointers to the age of things and also when things were constructed, but if the maker of the ribbons was a confused fellow it doesn't make life easy for us 60,70,80 years later! I like the sound of your grouping though, I have only a small number of party books. I shall always regret just missing a nice small bar, with 1923 NSDAP Gau badge, photos, Gold Party Badge and owners party book to SA member, grrr! Regards Matt Gibbs

Robert; Very interesting. I am suprised it was even DFW, discounting the actual party membership, I was guessing at DAF, since it included men and women. Interesting facts though. I am busy researching some of the NSF numbers at the moment, I have some copies of their literature and year books, which I am working on. I shall have to start a thread later about the DAF pins, because I have a couple to share that I like. TTFN Matt

Hello Don; Very interesting. What do you think the finish is like on the enamel, and do you know how long this was in a collection before you aquired it. M1/72 is quite a widespread maker on these as well, but perhaps thats a reason why someone might have tried this out? Mine is different with the plate which correctly fits on the back with rectangular shape. Whats the base metal, any thoughts? Regards Matt Gibbs

Hello Don; I think you will have to post them individually, or cut to the chase and show us what you mean..? I know 2 that I hope it ISN'T TTFN Matt Gibbs

Benten Now I am understanding you, sorry! Yes you would have thought that they were "reserved" for the top leaders. I guess what they did was only give these to the top leaders of offices at each level, so only a small number of members in an Ortsgruppe, Kreis, Gau and the Reichs offices would have had them. All the other levels of staff members would have got the bordered pin with no oakleaves. Very nice design though, I really like them. I think the reason of course you see much less Red and Yellow ones is of course, they needed less. Only 43 Gaue offices I suppose, and many more Orts and Kreis ones! I think this field is sometimes a bit neglected, the non combat awards to women. I was lucky to get a nice M1/120 Ortsfrauenschaftsfuhrerin badge in a group with the womans own party book including stamps of womens leadership courses attended, and also the book of her father, a retired police inspector and her daughter who was a postal worker. 2 female party books in one group! Regards Matt Gibbs

My best guess with the autograph is "in older years". Its a bit shaky, which could mean he autographed it for someone maybe at the time his book was published or something like that? Incidentally one of them married into the von Stauffenberg family - he of bomb plot 1944 fame. Was Otto his older brother..? Generalmajor Otto Freiherr von Berchem, who was in the Luftwaffe. I am asking because you don't mention a first name in your post. However, I guess its Friedrich? If so his brother was in Bavarian Infantry. Very interesting family, are you looking out for other things to this family now..? Kind regards Matt Gibbs

Benten; I am a little puzzled at what you mean. Each of the oakleaf border badges represents someone who was at the top of the hierachy in the area the badge represents. The Blue border represents someone at the level of Ortsfrauenschaftleiterin and the White represents someone at the level of Kreisfrauenschaftsleiterin, in the Orts and Kreis administrative districts they would have been "at the top of their tree". Unless you mean the Red and Yellow bordered pins for Gau and Reichs level administrators? The only difference is in the enamel colour, the quality of the badges is the same isn't it..? Sorry, you just confused me there. In Don's picture of course, the earlier type of badge with the red swastika in the centre and the red and yellow outlines DO represent the Gau and Reichsfrauenschaftsleitern staff leaders. If I am missing your point, what other level of hierachy is there? Regards Matt Gibbs

Don; Cose but not close enough indeed. Good guess though Nice quality and the oakleaves are slightly different to the M1/120's I have, on mine they are finer. Something else for me to look out for LOL. Best wishes Matt

Pleasure! Regards Matt Gibbs

Rick, Many thanks! If I can I will try to get a photo of the bar No its not mine Regards and thanks Matt Gibbs

Hmm I love those higher/closer leader badges too. I suspect maker M1/120, on these. Hopefully Don will let us know! I have the blue and white, seen a yellow but never seen a red for some reason? There would have been a lot less of these than the others though I guess, just for the staff of the Gaufrauenschaftsfuhrerin. Regards Matt Gibbs

Rick Thus I shall have to get myself one of these blacklight gadgets then huh? I guess collecting these things is really only for going to shows so you can actually check them out in the hand then. How do people who cannot do this collect then? I bow to your experience and knowlege of the sheer amount of fakes out there. I assume no one will have a problem if I sent this bar back to the dealer and pointed at this thread for all that is apparently wrong with it..??? One thing is though , suddenly you come across like you don't think I want to learn and you also come across like I need to be more humble in my respect for your knowlege, or is that just the way things happen to come across online because of the obviously impersonal nature of the internet? Anyone care to suggest alternative trusted dealers to patronise? Please list a few here. Regards Matt Gibbs

Don; Admiration as always, you're lucky to aquire that collection. Are things still ok..? Regards Matt Gibbs

Sorry - missed this bit off for some reason! - Thanks Rick. Incidentally I shall try not to make that book mistake then OK next question, does this order of precedence make any sense [this is from a full size bar group with minature combo.] Police 18 yr, NSDAP 10 year, Olympic Games 2ns class, 13th March entry medal, 1st Oct with Praque Castle Bar, Memelland, Lifesaving Medal, Social Welfare 2nd class with an Oakleaf Wreath/Swaz. West Wall medal To me it sounds like the Lifesaving medal is in the wrong place and I thought that you could only wear 2 of the flower wars medals. Also I thought the Social Welfare medal would be higher placed, but then maybe this was a preference of order recieved or something? The regs do not appear to make this clear to me. Perhaps as you say this is also to do with the time period.? Regards Matt Gibbs

Thanks Rick. I am guessing this is for someone who post 42 wanted to put his WW1 decorations in higher place than the Eastern Front Medal, as you say. Must have valued the WW1 decorations more, but still obeyed regs as far as the Reichs EK and KVK were concerned! Regards Matt Gibbs

Yes I am glad webr55 posted that neat photo so we can see how it should have been done correctly, thanks I'm sorry but IMHO that doesn't make my bar wrong, it makes the order on it wrong. I appreciate your opinion Rick [and your PMs - I understand why you can't post this directly on the forum] Thanks for bringing to my attention the reasons why you think it could be suspect without further evidence. I realise that even if I do blacklight it, [and I am borrowing the kit to do so] you say you would still doubt it. Does this mean every bar like this I come across more or less needs documented proof behind it? Sorry for more questions but I have also been asked some questions now from others about why if the blacklight checks out and the devices are ok and the construction materials are ok why does it have to be suspect, the guy could just have had it made up wrong. [or gone to a less reputable firm!]. I have now also got the official story from the dealer who aquired this and other pieces that he did split up and sell the items and they are now, sadly, all disbursed to the four winds. I can also tell you that apart from awards docs etc the recipients private papers went into a historical collection that I am now applying to get access to for information because I am told there is a photo collection. Without being able to post a good small enough filesized photo of the front of the devices here I see that I cannot reasonably ask for anyones balanced opinion on here. I can tell you that by looking carefully at the back and the front [under magnification] they are at least as good as the ones in the gallery on the WAF site, there is good definition of the eagles wings and feather details on their front. When I find out some more information I shall add it to this thread, thanks for the PM's of advice about where and how to go about making this kind of research, seeking other evidence etc, this is the kind of useful constructive information that these forums are designed to share so we can all learn and enjoy this hobby. I can now move on to other things in the meantime! Regards Matt Gibbs

Can I also just check - you're saying that this book is not a good buy, before I make a mistake in ordering one...?? Regards Matt Gibbs

I think I am a little confused with precedence of awards now betwen 3rd Reich and Imperial. It is correct to wear Ek2 for WW1 and then the KVK and after this comes the Hindenburg Cross for WW1, and then other awards for WW1 would follow this? Where does an award such as Frozen Meat Medal come in, would this be after the Hindenburg Cross on a bar or before? At first I thought this would come after the KVK but now I am not so sure. I have a bar which has: Iron Cross 2nd class 1914 with 1939 bar [nice with kind of silvery frosting good detail] War Merit Cross with swords Hanseatic Cross Hindenburg Cross with swords and the Russian Front medal A War Commemorative medal - ribbon orange with white edges and white horiz.stripes. Bit grubby on end edge as it has worn, maybe rubbing. It is a tabby bar and the tabs look undisturbed but how do you tell? For some reason I thought the hanseatic cross was maybe in the the wrong place? Regards Matt Gibbs

Well, with a digicam, I cannot focus in much more on macro to make a low enough resolution picture for this site I will have to try and borrow the scanner of a friend, if I can. I can make great pictures, but not limited in size for this forum, there seems not too much point in the bothering anyway. I didn't realise this was the 3rd Reichs most prestigious political gift. regards MG

Incidentally Paul, if thats scanned it is good. My old scanner was scrap, I think I need a new one so any recommendations appreciated! Sawrey for the off topic but its very relevant to me, as I am still learning about ribbons and bars!! Incidentally I can tell you that from looking in between the stitching and ribbon on the reverse the wings that hold the devices on are definately the same colour as the front, they do not look like just the front has been painted. Under a strong magnifier the detail on the devices is really good, there does not appear to be detail that has been some how "filled in" with paint, if you see what I mean. Indeed, on the bronze there appears to be a bit of verdigris or something, slightly tarnished on a little part of one of the wings. I know a pic says a thousand words though. Regards Matt Gibbs

Whoops! Forgot to add, I am impressed you have never seen a good bar with wrong precedence! I think I need to forget about ribbon bars until I have devoured a couple of hundred books on the subject! Regards MG