Carlo

8 hours ago, tifes said:

Hi,

 

it looks like Resch miniature chain with FJO knight-mini (before 1867, without hallmarks) to me. Both ones should be in gold. Case doesn't belong to it, I would say.

 

Regards,

 

t.

HI,
I actually didn't add a photo of the box, but I think it was purchased privately as it has the small seat with the outlines of the decoration.

Here are other photos that perhaps can help with identification.

The case appears to be the size of a full size Order of Franz Joseph

Carlo

Good morning everyone,
I recently purchased this miniature of the Order of Franz Joseph, my first miniature of an Austrian order.

Examining it in person I realized that it has no mark, neither the medal nor the chain, nor any manufacturer's mark or material mark.

I'm pretty sure it's original, and was wondering if the manufacture could identify a possible manufacturer.

The cross almost looks like gold, while the chain doesn't, another thing I noticed is that the clasp of the chain is engraved by hand, which I don't know if it was done on other materials other than gold.
Can anyone give me some info?

On 12/11/2023 at 19:59, Farkas said:

Most definitely a Z 👍

 

I’ve found this article, I don’t know which language it is in but I think it’s safe to guess the meaning of the relevant bit,

the reverse is by : Johann Pfeiffer

so the Z almost certainly isn’t for him.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

PS

I think I just realised the reason for both anomalies ! 👇

 

There are many variations of this medal, both sides, but I don’t think they are intentional.

I think the stamp/dye got worn and was re-etched but the worn down design remaining was interpreted and repaired slightly differently over time…

 

On the reverse. In all of them the leaves or acorns are in the same ‘footprint’, they overlay each other.

 

So… The Z is actually an incorrect interpretation of the edge of the ribbon on the original.

 

& I think the acorns were originally in pairs so one of the 3 acorns on yours should be a leaf.

 

I noticed mine 👇 coincidentally has a similar upper unusual acorn but is missing the lower outside one, it’s been turned into a leaf.

Yours 👇

 

These are a few others below.

This first one particularly you can see different it is, in my opinion a worn dye.

 

tony 🍻

Great research, but I don't think it's a worn die, but a different style of engraving.

But looking at yours I noticed that mine has more acorns, I count 12, while in yours and in my others I only count 8.
Notice the tops of the leaves on the right side.

45 minutes ago, Farkas said:

hi Carlo,

I’ve got two of these, the same design with the C not the Z, and neither has the mark yours has.

nor any mark (maker or otherwise) on the rim or elsewhere that I can see…

 

 

One thing I wondered is whether it could be the number 2 ?
Obviously the photos never do the details justice so it may well be clear to you that it isn’t 👍 but you know me, I like to mention my random unlikely thoughts 😊

whether a Z or 2 it’s clear there is an intentional difference to the actual design of your medal (to that of mine for example), rather than a stamp or punch mark added post production such as those we find on the rim.

 

If I only had your example here to go from, or if they all had it…  I would be tempted to say it was the artist/designers  mark or initial… however I would then expect, most likely, two initials 🤷‍♂️
 

An interesting find, well spotted.

 

tony  🍻

 

 

You're right, the photos aren't the best, but you should see better from this one.

Another detail that I noticed is that in the second pair of acorns starting from the bottom there is not one on each side, but one on the left and two on the right, something that I only found in this specimen.

I have to verify who the engraver of the decoration was, I don't remember his name at the moment, but it certainly could be.

Good evening everyone,
with this topic I wanted to share with you this kriegsmedaille which is marked with a small Z at 6 o'clock on the back.

Does anyone know if it is indicative of any manufacturer?
I immediately thought of Zimbler, but I have another marked J.Z. and it's different, so I don't think it's the same manufacturer.

On 14/10/2023 at 07:59, Graf said:

Fair decision 2.5 meters That is 100@ factory left over and was discovered at some stage  Congrats

Thanks

21 hours ago, Farkas said:

 

Such an interesting post it seems almost petty pointing it out but i’m guessing you meant 25 centimetres long?

 

if not... can i have a piece please 🤞

 

Cheers

tony 🍻

HI,
yes I mean 2.5 meters, but I prefer not to cut it.
It has arrived today in this form and I don't want to change it.

On 11/10/2023 at 10:17, Elmar Lang said:

It is a nice combination ribbon from the immediate post-1849 years, to be mounted on a then also called as "Mode-Spange", where usually on the bar the highest order was presented as an enameled miniature, placed to the centre of the bar itself.

 

This bar shows the Imperial Austrian Order of the Iron Crown; the French Order of the Legion of Honour (from the Restauration, presumably), the Metallenes Armeekreuz a.k.a. "Kanonenkreuz" and the "Militärdienstzeichen für Offiziere". this last one, introduced in 1849.

 

Just to add a little pictorial addition to this discussion, I would like to post the image of an Austrian "Mode-Spange" with combined ribbon, from my own collection. The reverse is struck with maker's and gold marks for the year 1805.

 

All the best,

 

Enzo

Interesting explanation.
The width of the ribbon is exactly 6.8cm and it is approximately 2.5 meters long.
However, I hadn't thought about the fact that the red ribbon could be a French Order of the Legion of Honour, I have to go and review a couple of things about the alliances of the time.

Hello everyone,
here are more photos.
To answer Farkas' question: the medal is attached to the ribbon by simply hooking the hook inside the upper edge of the ribbon.
Unfortunately I no longer have the photo, but there is also a variant with a small metal element to reinforce where the medal attaches to the ribbon.

Greetings,
I want to present to you an article that has given me a lot to think about lately, it is a combined ribbon with 4 decorations.

I know that combined ribbons existed and were used, what makes me think is the combination of decorations to which the individual ribbons belong.
Order of the Iron Crown, Order of Franz Joseph, Kanonenkreuz, Service Cross.

The ribbon that makes me think is that of the kanonenkreuz, which could have been combined with that of the order of the iron crown, but I have some doubts about the other two.

The ribbon is made of very fine silk, which makes me think it is quite old, but other than that I have no other information.
If anyone has any ideas or information it would be greatly appreciated.

Hello everyone,
I recently came across this medal for 40 years of faithful service with an uncommon ribbon attachment system.

I've only seen a couple before, in my experience it should be one of the alternative methods for attaching the medal to the ribbon that were designed between the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century.
Not having had much success at the time, today there are only a few examples that can be found.

Hello everyone,
in this topic I wanted to present a new addition to my collection.
A Kriegsmedaille in an old box, I believe from the period of the creation of this medal.

Unfortunately neither the box nor the medal have any distinctive marks or signs.

8 hours ago, Farkas said:

Thanks Carlo…

 

tony 🍻

You're welcome!!

Judging by the color (especially the back) it seems to be made of silver-plated zinc, where the plating has been lost over time.
There is a zinc version of this decoration as well as the Kriegsmedaille and the Military merit medal made at the end of the First World War.

In my opinion an interesting piece and not easy to find.

On 13/07/2023 at 01:53, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

continuing the summary first…

 

There are 4 marked HMA.

- HEERESMATERIALAMT

    (Army Ordnance) in my opinion. 

 

There are 3 marked JC

- Johann Christelbaur & Son

 

There are 3 marked FA

I haven’t seen this attributed to a particular maker so…

I’m inclined to say FA represents…

- FESTUNGSARTILLERIE (Fortress Artillery) 

 

If HEERESMATERIALAMT (Army Ordnance) is acceptable as maker HMA then why not FESTUNGSARTILLERIE  (Fortress Artillery) also?

 

Any thoughts welcome as always 👍

tony 🍻

 

***

Just 5 left to summarise, then onto pictures of the KTK, the stamps and details.

 

FA is the mark of Franz Adler from Vienna

On 12/08/2023 at 15:40, 1812 Overture said:

This demon needed 4600 yuan to purchase at that time

I'm pretty sure I saw it in the emedals archive some time ago.
It will probably have been an officer who was not happy to have the same decoration as the troop and would have had it personalized, as happened with the kanonenkreuz

On 8/17/2023 at 2:57 AM, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

Why didn’t I just leave it at that…🤷‍♂️
 

I couldn’t though.

 

On the rim of a thin KTK a simplified makers mark is understandable but there is plenty of space on Grahams wound medal for Grossmans usual mark.

I’ve been looking for others so I kept looking for GW and I found one.

 

 

In theory, it has to be him.

The GW is his makers mark.

 

Unless the business had ceased trading by 1916 and it was up for grabs?

I can’t get any results for him or his business on Google, even with ‘Wilde’ and ‘Wildt’.  I guess there are some in German but it just isn’t matching me with them.

Any thoughts Gents?

 

tony 🍻

 

Interesting, it could be, it's a shame we don't have a box to add a few more elements to the search...

Hello,
unfortunately I don't know how to help you, I've been asking myself the same question for a long time.
The only thing that came to mind was about the KMT mark, which could also be interpreted as KriegsMeTall, the Karl Truppenkreuz is made of zinc which in German was also called kriegsmetall.

On the version of the Kriegsmedaille made in zinc during the First World War there is the mark KM which I believe also indicates the word kriegsmetall.

Unfortunately I can't think of anything else, I hope for the intervention of those who know more.....

Hello everyone,
I recently came across this box for the gold merit cross, nothing special about the box itself, it is a Bergmann box dated 1916 for a piece made of bronze.
The reason why I bought it is inside, a Rothe sticker is glued to the inner side of the lid.
I'm pretty sure it's original because I've seen other stickers like it applied on the boxes of a Marianerkreuz and an Order of the Iron Crown, as well as on the boxes of some miniature chains.

The thing I was wondering is the reason for this, considering that Rothe produced both the decorations and the boxes for all the pieces I was talking about above.

Now I rely, as often happens, on the knowledge of the most experts.

Carlo

On 13/02/2023 at 18:30, wangyaokang2003 said:

dear gentleman

i found this case on ebay，did rothe actually made these box？

its real or fake？ in my opinion，it was a fake one

thanks in advance

it's difficult to say, as the others have already said, Rothe also produced on commission.
The certain thing is that it was certainly not officially issued, but it could certainly be a commissioned production.

10 hours ago, StefanK. said:

You state that certain products of Resch „are not known“. What does that mean? Are they not known by Mr. Tomas or the entirety of the collectors-community of austro-hungarian medals and decorations? If the first case is true, I would kindly ask you to reconsider your expressions in a public forum and say „are not known by me“ in order not create any confusions. 

 

This is certainly a good point of view, also because when talking about personal knowledge you cannot think you know everything.
Many years have passed since the production of these decorations and certainly only a few of them have reached the present day.
I too thought that Resch production was limited to a few prestigious decorations and in precious materials, until I found (by chance) a service cross with the Resch mark, which I personally thought was impossible having never seen any and being a decoration usually made of bronze which is certainly not an expensive material.
Since then I have started to discuss and ask for information from the more experts in order to expand my knowledge on the subject, and this topic is the proof.

Greetings

Carlo

On 02/10/2023 at 23:22, farmer said:

Just a note here, brass is not metal suitable for enameling so it is most likely on base copper or what enamelers call either gilding or enameling alloy (some call it enamel grade tombac or such - there are many names for such alloys). It needs to have under 5% of zinc in it's composition and regular brass has a lot more - which would render enameling very ugly or altogether ineffective. After the fact, it can be indeed silver plated or gold plated (gilded).

Interesting, I'll definitely keep that in mind.
I didn't post the photo, but this decoration has the Diana head mark of 900 silver, which makes sense as it was produced pre 1918 (I think)

On 01/10/2023 at 22:01, Farkas said:

It’s a lovely thing Carlo.

I wonder if the KTK is a replacement item or a later addition.  
 

cheers

tony 🍻

 

 

Thank you!
Considering the other decorations and the markings of the material I think it could be.
Unfortunately with the chains you never know if they are original since the miniatures can be removed or added.
In this case the only decoration with the welded ring is the marianerkreuz, so I believe that decoration has never been modified.

3 hours ago, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

I sometimes get a bit fixated…

especially when surely there must be an answer somewhere, the mark is not uncommon.

 

So I’ve kept looking on & off.

 

Recap first. (F mark)

- Not any known European makers mark.

- Not a craftsman/journeyman/batch mark (as always an F not variable)

- Not a hallmark.

- Used on a Bulgarian award.

- Used on a German made Austrian award.

 

So…

I have another observation, nothing I would definitely attribute to these marks but worth a mention maybe.

The Dutch had a dating system for their hallmarks. The chart is below. They used a letter F (though circled) for the year 1915…

 

• The Austrian Red Cross award and the Bulgarian Cross date there or thereabouts. (1914+ & 1915)

• I’m clutching at straws (it is gone 3am here in 🇬🇧 & I’m bit buzzed) and I have found nothing more to back this up but I’m wondering if this could indeed be a 1915 date stamp?
• The Dutch were neutral in ww1 but traded with Germany (at least) as I understand it. Could medal production, or parts of it, have been outsourced by certain government’s or individual makers to the neutral Netherlands? 🤷‍♂️
 

tony 🍻

Zzzz

 

 

 

 

Interesting, at the moment I have no memory of Austrian date stamps, (maybe I'm wrong) but it could be.

Unfortunately, like other marks that are sometimes found on decorations, this one is not yet identified, like many others.

One thing I've noticed is that you often find unknown marks on the War Cross for Civil Merit and on the Karl trupprnkreuz.
This makes me think that having (along with the red cross decorations) been established near the end of the empire and having all been produced by numerous manufacturers due to high demand (especially the KTK and the red cross decorations) there was time to keep track of the manufactutrer.

Obviously this is my hypothesis, I'm certainly not the best expert in this sector, so all I can do is formulate hypotheses and discuss them with others.

But I think this is one of the beautiful things about collecting, together with: studying, researching and dealing with the most experienced collectors to expand your own knowledge.

On 01/05/2023 at 04:26, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

an interesting question that doesn’t seem to have an obvious answer despite there being pretty good information on here and the web about jewellers marks.

 

It is normal to see most official marks ‘boxed’ in, all the assay office punch marks & the ‘Frei’ mark are.

 

This F is not listed as a different registered makers mark and not the known GAS marks either.

 

In my hunt I did find reference to ‘scratch marks’, these are different to the jewellers maker mark, mostly just 1 or 2 letters and engraved (scratched) not stamped.

 

 

 

As there is no reason I can see for Scheid to use an F to represent GAS.

So I wondered if it may have been an individual craftsman mark… but the appearance of an F on both of the 2 Bulgarian Crosses 👇 presumably made by a different firm makes that most unlikely.

I also wondered if the F might be because the award was for a woman (F for female) though obviously that’s English not German…

but again the Bulgarian cross negates that because Its pretty likely it was for a man.

I did find one other GAS mark that is a silver mark, this has the letter Z 👇. Totally different in appearance but it must represent something 🤷‍♂️

and I found another Bulgarian Bravery order with the F on the same arm as the others 

 

My only other thought is there was a guy called Fraget who did just about all silver playing for years, is it possible he silver plated these medals?

🤷‍♂️

 

More questions & no answers from me!!

 

tony

 

 

An excellent research, which as you say leads to more questions than answers, but from a certain point of view it is an interesting part of the collector's "profession"!

After some research I found an excerpt from the catalog of Johann Menner from 1903 where this medal cost from 5 to 7 crowns.
While in the 1910 Heinrich Ulbricht's Widow catalog the same medal costs 3 crowns, the same price as in the Schneider Brothers catalog of the same year. Instead in the catalog of H.Schall & Son of 1908 it is 3.70 crowns.

Based on these prices (all referring to medals without ribbon) I believe that this box can be dated to around the early 1900s. What do you think?? Could be??