Harrier

Not a bad attitude at all, Scott! It can never hurt to be very conservative in this hobby.

Another note for those who may not have seen the new Adrian Forman book. This book is fairly controversial and certainly contains statements, and shows photos of some items, which some people (including myself) will have a hard time accepting. This is particularly so in the sections dealing with higher grades of the Knights Cross, where versions of the Oakleaves, Swords and Brilliants (and other grades) not before seen are shown as authentic. Although I may disagree with some things, the truth is that Forman has almost certainly handled more pieces, and interacted with more people actually "present at the creation" of some of these awards, than most (if not all) of us. I truly do not know if he is right or wrong on some of these things. Regarding Spanish Crosses, he says, repeatedly and definitively, that 1st style eagles (i.e the "drop-tail") can be found on some pieces which are not actual award pieces, but "duplas" or commercial sale versions. Actual award pieces employ the 2nd style ("swoop-tail") eagle. It is my understanding that Forman's statements regarding these eagles coincide with the beliefs (although I certainly cannot speak for them) of Steve Wolfe and Neil Hardin in the U.S. and Detlev Niemann in Germany. Certainly no one is perfect, and every dealer comes under attack from time to time, but it is interesting to me that people with this degree of experience would share this opinion. Now, back to the show! Let's see some more Crosses! :D

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235435389.jpgAnother (small) contribution.

No wonder nice Spanish Crosses are so hard to find. Jacques has cornered the market! Great crosses, Jacques!! :beer:

A shame to have ruined what may have been a perfectly nice cross. Just look at the spacing on the stones! On the photo, #2 does indeed look like Lutzow.

Some of them were promoted (including Moelders) while they were in Spain and at least had time to have their new collar tabs sewn on. Actually, I am just having fun. Many officers continued to wear their old eagles for several years. Moelders continued to wear his (at least on some uniforms) up to the time of his death in November, 1941.

Yes, the new Forman book does have very nice photos. He seems to base some of his statements on personal encounters and interviews and seems to be pretty positive regarding Godet's inability to produce all the awards on time. There may be some things, I suppose, we will never have "officially" confirmed. I am still interested in "trade" reports regarding these decorations before they were "announced" by the government formally. I will check with friends who have copies of "Schwert und Spaten", "Uniform-markt" and other publications and see what they can find. Best, Harrier P.S. Nice to see that ALL the officers receiving the "Brilliants" still have down-tail eagles on their uniforms. :rolleyes:

Very interesting, Jacques! I think this same photo montage also appeared in Der Adler. Do you happen to have any of the "Schwert und Spaten" publications mentioning this before April, 1939? For award ceremonies just 2 months later, these early producers must have been very busy indeed (as you have already noted). I believe Forman has recently noted that some recipients of the "Brilliants" class did not receive their pieces on schedule because they simply weren't ready from Godet. It would be fascinating to have more knowledge of just how industry geared up for these awards and how the early makers were chosen.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235330114.jpgLove that "German precision"! Cross upside down and no mention of those w/o swords! (Jacques' photo)

An interesting view from the side, showing where the sword used to be. P.S. This photo actually shows the true obverse color of the cross better than my others!

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235322772.jpgJacques, The color is a mystery to me and you may be right that it was exposed to sunlight. Here are 2 more photos I just now took in daylight. Harrier

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235319871.jpgActually, I didn't have far to look because I already had some photos of the Meybauer in my files! From the back, it appears to be a standard bronze without swords (the swords having been factory removed, as I understand Meybauer did). From the front, however, it appears to be of the gold class and the finish is much, much brighter. This cross is in the exact condition I obtained it from a vet many years ago and has not been cleaned or "dipped" . I have no explanation for its appearance.

isonzo, Those are beautiful crosses! Your second one appears to be a very close match to the unknown manufacturer I showed in my Post#13, so maybe Jacques will have some more data for his files. Our collective information grows! Jacques, I also have thought about the possible use of ribbon bar devices for these eagles, but I have very many examples of these devices and have never found one that was the exact correct size or thickness for this use. I suppose, though, that there could be some. I just haven't seen them. The "boards" are comprised of awards which appear to have been manufactured SOLELY by Ludenscheid companies, according to the pieces which have been identified by other collector specialists (such as Tom Durante). The Ludenscheid "connection" is the common thread, and these match boards found by other collectors obtained in the immediate postwar months and brought back by veterans. Believed to have been assembled by factory workers, many times using placemats from factory canteens, to provide a source of income in those hard times. All badges so far identified appear to be leftover original factory stock. I think we can agree that there are mysteries still to be solved regarding the genesis of the first Spanish Crosses and the real-life workings of commercial manufacturers. The "brilliants" set I posted is, of course, not a Godet and does not pretend to be (as do so many other copies). The design is very obviously different. The physical characteristics of the badge, however, are correct for the larger size "brilliants" award: Height: 58.72 mm Width: 58.40 mm Length of swords: 63.52 mm Width of central disc: 16.70 mm Weight: 39.06 g (badge marked '900' on body, '800' on pin) The cross is die-struck, not cast. So we are left with very, very many poorly made badges, generally cast and with poor detail, which are certainly fakes and would never be accepted as original badges (even without the eagle design) and a very, very few badges which are well made, have very good detail and design and, except for the eagle shape, would be accepted in the ordinary course as original badges. These lead me to the PERSONAL conclusion that a few of these badges were made, by mistake, and put "into the stream of commerce". The manufacture of a very few "wearing copies" of the "brilliants" by companies other than Godet does not surprise me (even if not a single one sold), simply because these companies considered themselves to be part of the "elite" of badge manufacturers and would feel compelled by pride to "have a horse in the race". Again, and speaking only for myself, I will continue to pursue Spanish Crosses because I consider them to be wonderful badges, and if I see a well-made badge with "drop-tail" eagles, I will (if I am able) try to obtain it, too. As another note, I have always understood that the gold badge, without swords, was also made in limited quantity (again, based on manufacturers "jumping the gun" and thinking there would be 3 classes, each with and without swords) but never awarded. I have a crested Meybauer cross without swords which certainly appears to be of the gold class, and I will take some photos today and post them here. Best, Harrier

Sorry for the multiple replies, but here is the link to the variant Spanish Cross being sold by "emedals" (the board contents have now been broken down into individual pieces). http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL594 And here is the link, on that same site, to another "4" piece, with the "regular" eagles. Compare the soldering, which seems to me to be almost identical. http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL590#bigPic

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235254519.jpgHere is a little closer photo of the variant eagle on the S&L "souvenir board" Spanish cross shown previously. For what it is worth (maybe nothing), all these boards (and there were several, each with a different selection of awards) have been listed for sale on the "emedals" site, with authentication by Detlev Niemann.

Very nice, isonzo! These crosses are, to me, the most attractive of German awards. Further to Jacques - I would think that of all the "drop-tail" eagles we see, over 95% are fake. I believe the real ones were created in error and confusion and out of a very real sense of intense business competition by German manufacturers trying to be "first out of the gate" and that SOME actually were sold and worn. The logic of such a possibility (to me, at least) makes every bit as much sense as any argument against it. The "4" mark is, indeed, the PKZ number assigned to S&L and although there is still some debate as to the time of first use, I personally agree that it was in 1941 and later. I find its use on the pin of the variant, however, not at all distressing. While S&L certainly switched to the "correct" eagle at some point, it almost certainly could have had unfinished planchets of the earlier design still in the factory and could have added the pin at any time to a few to complete pieces for commercial (LDO) sale. I doubt seriously that anyone really cared enough to object, especially as the war went on and on. Scott - The Next-of-Kin case is, to me, a perfect example of a manufacturer making something because of something it had seen or heard which made it believe that the design would use the down-tail eagle. I still find it intriguing that the Doehle illustration (which is indeed, as Jacques pointed out, a good drawing) shows alternating "drop-tail, swoop-tail, drop-tail, swoop-tail" eagles circling the swastika. That certainly would have been a perfect way to "bring together" the years of service in Spain from 1936 to 1939.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235243222.jpgFrom the "brilliants" set. The design of this eagle IS different from the silver one just posted.

Except for multiple reported "vet bringbacks" of "drop-tailed" eagle Spanish Crosses, the foregoing posts constitute all the evidence I am aware of regarding the possible existence of these variants. They have been discussed repeatedly (but almost always viciously) in other forums. It is my PROPOSAL that drop-tailed eagle Spanish Crosses constituted a "jumping of the gun" by some manufacturers who believed the Luftwaffe eagle used in 1936 would be the one used on the awards, based, perhaps, on confusing official designs. It MAY even have been that the design started off as "drop-tail", progressed to "alternating eagles" of each type, and then settled on the final "swoop-tail" version (adopted by the Luftwaffe in 1937, and transitioned in on uniforms over the next 2 years) seen on almost all awards, all in a very short time span. There are certainly multiple postwar fakes of the Spanish Cross using the "drop-tail" design. ALL of these fakes, in my personal observation, lack the quality of wartime pieces and, indeed, many are sloppy castings. At this point, NONE of this can be proved absolutely and there are no photographs discovered so far which are clear enough to definitively establish that a cross being worn is of the "drop-tail" variety (although some are close). Just something to think about, with an open mind.... P.S. Jacques - I understand fully your feeling and appreciate it. I will post photos of two different eagles, with the suggestion that they are not crude or ugly. By the way, the last several posts are NOT my photos or of items I have.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235241657.jpgSouvenir board from S&L supposedly brought back by British officer immediately postwar. "Drop-tail" eagle variant at lower right of Spanish Crosses.