Harrier

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1234790287.jpgReverse.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1234790189.jpgJacques,

Sorry I missed your post asking for additional photos of the ones I'm guessing at. Any help appreciated!

Harrier

What, no diamonds gentlemen?

And no one believes.... :shame:

Bronze w/swords = S&L (4)

Silver w/ swords = marked '900' and I THINK Meybauer

Gold w/swords = L/13 (Meybauer)

Bronze w/o swords = unmarked and, I believe, Meybauer

Silver w/o swords = L/18 (Mayer - Pforzheim)

Regretably, I am not the real expert on manufacturers that you are!

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1234705181.jpgNot as pretty as yours, Jacques, but here are some!

Thanks for the clarification. Saw "EN..." in the title of the thread, but "Em..." in the first post.............

That site shows him as "ENRIGHT", not "EMRIGHT". Don't know which is correct.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-2778-1231894778.jpgI have played with the contrast a bit and this is the best I can do. Hope Mike can do better. To me, this is certainly a variant.

Thanks for the message. Photo now sent.

Well, sorry it's low resolution, but these are, again, photographs taken of "contact sheets" composed of actual glossy minature prints, all 35mm size, and then enlarged. I can assure you that this IS a variant and that no touching up whatsoever has been done. The GC and PLM are both perfectly normal.

I would be glad to enlarge this, but quite frankly don't know how with the small photo size allowed. Send me your e-mail in a PM and I will be glad to send this to you and you can perhaps "re-show" it here.

I have already been to your EXCELLENT site. In fact, you have one of my caps amongst your photos. :rolleyes:

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-2778-1231891370.jpgHere you go. Edda playing with Daddy's PLM. Note the shoulder board.

I am, regretably, more suspicious than you. There is enough of his stuff floating around that it would be, in my opinion, fairly easy to insert these into such a grouping (say, from the train looted by members of the 506 P.I.R., and others). Just to narrow it down, though, these are of shoulder, not collar, insignia. If I can find a photo that shows something, but not enough to duplicate precisely, I will show it here tonight. Some photos are really excellent and would be "enough" to make them again.

I agree with you on the embroidered insignia. The ones in the photographs, however, are in metal and I worry very much about capabilities in THAT area.

I have a photo of Milch as Generaloberst wearing the black backed tabs....at the moment I can't locate it, but will poke around until I find it. I do have it posted on my website in the "Luftwaffe GFM" section.

I do know that Goring also had tabs made with a backing color to match his uniform, as well as direct embroidered to the collar. I don't know if we'll ever truly know the amount of variants Hermann had for his uniforms, as he changed them several times each day.

In all candor, I have to say that among the hundreds and hundreds of photos in this collection we obtained were several photos of Reichsmarschall insignia, actually being worn, which match NOTHING ever seen before. I hate to be a "tease", but I am afraid that if they are ever published, then we will see, within 6 months, copies being sold as real and no one will be able to refute them. One of our photos was actually published, in the old Halcomb book on headgear, and shows the Reichsmarschall cap (the one with the embroidery running all around the cap band) on the day it was delivered from eReL. These other photos are from the same time period, in my opinion.

Hermann had more uniforms, and insignia made especially for him, than any other person in the Third Reich, and I would be surprised at NOTHING I saw in photos of him.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-2778-1231371678.jpgA little better.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-2778-1231371201.jpgAnd finally, since I've only found one envelope in my "easy to get to area", here's a blown-up candid photo of Milch, Busch (I believe) and others on Goering's train. I promise to keep looking.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-2778-1231371018.jpgHere's the (small version) of Goering with black-backed Feldmarschall tabs. Hard to see here, but that's what they are.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-2778-1231370772.jpgPaul,

I'm not much good to you right this moment, but here is a sample of what I'm talking about. Many years ago, a friend of mine and I obtained over a hundred pages of contact sheets (positives) of photos taken by Goering's private photographer. We had these re-photographed by a professional photographer and then blown up. SOMEWHERE, I have all the envelopes of these photos, but I just can't get to them all right now. Here's a sample page of what we were dealing with.

Harrier

Paul,

Somewhere (and I will try to dig them out) I have some photos of Milch and, I believe, Goering, wearing black-backed tabs in pre-war times.

Best,

Harrier

Uwe,

I got my first RK (also in 1958!!) as a gift from a vet. It has been an uphill struggle since then!

Eventually, I hope we will have the answers we need, as more and more pieces are catalogued. Thank goodness for the internet!

You are right, the 1957 RK was not technically a "re-issue". It was a new version authorized for production and wear.

I have no doubt that Sedlatzek and the others dealt in fakes (and real items, too). Just when they switched to primarily fakes is an interesting question. It could have been in 1952, or 1953 or 1955. It was not, however, IN MY OPINION, before the very early 1950's.

Best regards!

Harrier

I believe we have had this same conversation before.

I have seen the same catalogs you refer to (1952, etc., and also a note from Mr. Sedlatzek in 1956). There was speculation that these dealers were selling newly-made copies at this time, BUT NO PROOF. There was, however, abundant information regarding the large quantities of leftover original wartime material available for sale at that time.

I have no PERSONAL doubt that some material was being illicitly produced prior to 1955 (not 1957), but between 1945 and 1949 (with the new German government just in place), there is NO evidence of any new production whatsoever. Even after the new government was installed, the Allied Commission, until 1955, enforced the ban, albeit with decreased vigilance. Ludenscheid was in the British Zone of Occupation, and the British very strictly followed the prohibition (more so than the Americans did).

As I told you before in another forum, I would LOVE to see real evidence of production in the early postwar years. That evidence was not forthcoming then. I am still, however, eager to see it.

Les - Dietrich has undoubtedly demonstrated, by die wear, that S&L began new manufacture of RK's (in swastika form) prior to the 1957 re-issue of that award. Some of those 1957 awards have unflawed beading (but with the 3 o'clock dent row), but others have the beading flaws all over, a clear sign that frame manufacture was re-commenced prior to 1957. There is, however (and Dietrich and I have discussed this many times), no way to know when that first occurred. At this point, it is sheer speculation that new manufacture (new stamping) began immediately after the war. At some point, certainly, but not in the immediate postwar period by any measure of PROOF whatsoever.

We are now considerably so if this conversation is to continue, we should move it.

In recent discussions on other forums, a time line for post-World War II production in Germany (not Austria), given the existance of both the Allied Control Commisssion and German law, was suggested, as follows:

1945-1955- NO new manufacture of anything. Perhaps finishing (assembly, adding pins, etc.) to existing leftover stock (of which there was, apparently, an abundance), for sale to "the entitled" or to occupation forces.

1955-57- (1955 being the effective end of the Control Commission), some limited new production, but under German law, NO swastikas. Presumably,Imperial awards could be produced. Still, "proof of entitlement" by German citizens was supposedly required in order to purchase. Based on some German dealer catalogs from this time, it is likely that some companies, especially S&L, may have commenced illicit new actual production of badges with swastikas at approximately this same time.

1957-Present- Except for swastika awards, no restrictions on production or purchase. (Obviously, the swastika ban hasn't been enforced very well!)

I certainly hope that Les, or someone, will produce a book (and soon!) examining in detail die changes and wear, with links to specific time periods.