PKeating
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Posts posted by PKeating
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Thank the Gods for small mercies. Truth sometimes causes offence but at least I was economical with the truth in line with GMIC guidelines.
Now, just to round this off, I'd like to address CB's comment about Vichy awards.
Hi,
I think an important differentiation must be made here.
The 57 awards are not official decorations of the Bundesrepublik but 3rd Reich decorations in a form that could be officially worn in the Bundesrepublik.
Once again semantics rears its head.
The Vichy decorations did indeed replace previous awards for 39-40 but were also kept on the books for subsequent awards... this is not the case for the 1957 German awards.
Best
Chris
The 1939-1940 Croix de Guerre and Croix du Combattant introduced in 1941 by the Vichy government as replacements for the so-called 'Republican' versions were not actually awarded for any action following the ceasefire between French and German armed forces in June 1940. They were solely for veterans of La guerre de 1939 à 1940. After the Liberation, the French authorities established boards of enquiry to look into the circumstances of awards of the Croix de Guerre in 1939 and 1940 as it was felt that some awards were not really merited. Those recipients whose awards were approved sometimes swapped the Vichy ribands for the Republican pattern, continuing to wear the decorations with the Vichy dates.
However, the 1939 Republican Croix de Guerre continued to be awarded by the Gaullist government-in-exile and Free French-inclined colonial administrations, with crosses produced in England and in various French colonies and overseas territories. There were also Croix de Guerre produced and awarded in French territories loyal to Vichy. The so-called Croix de Guerre dite Giraud instituted by General Giraud on March 16 1943 and produced and awarded in Tunisia is an example. De Gaulle eventually forbade the wearing of these crosses after Giraud changed sides following the defeat of the Axis in North Africa. The was also the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire, instituted in January 1942 for members of the Légion des Volontaires Français (contre le Bolchevisme) fighting on the Eastern Front. However, this was not really a state award as such, the LVF being a privately supported venture.
The only official Vichy Croix de Guerre was instituted early in 1944 by the Pétain government. Being a purely military award, members of the Milice and other paramilitary and security organisations were ineligible. By that stage, the only soldiers eligible for this award were members of Pétain's personal bodyguard and the 1st Regiment of France, a purely Vichy unit raised in 1943. The 1944 Vichy Croix de Guerre is said to have been awarded for combat against partisans of various resistance groups and their SAS and SOE comrades although the 1 RF actually seems to have seen very little action, with most members joining the Free French as soon as they could. The cross bears the date 1944 on the reverse and the Vichy 'Francisque' with the legend ETAT FRANCAIS on the obverse. You can see it in the middle in the above image.
So I would stand by my comparison of the awards authorised for wear in 1957 by the government of the BRD, following revisions to the design where necessary, to the awards authorised by the Vichy regime so that veterans, whether serving or not in Vichy forces, could wear their awards for the War of 1939-1940 without causing offence to their new German friends and partners following the armistice. Adenauer's government, being in a similar position to that of Vichy, found a way to allow their soldiers to wear their valour and campaign awards without causing offence to their new friends and partners, who were occupying Germany.
PK
PK
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I think we need to clarify a few points here for the benefit of readers as this topic has one of the highest viewing figures in this section.
Ahhh, now I understand it: To ask for proofs for bold statements is rude and agressive! Only for Germans or only for Uwe speedytop? And the deleted parts in PK's comments must be to chary and to polite for a Gentleman's Club?It is not unreasonable to ask for proof of statements or evidence to support statements and arguments. I have posted and quoted extensively from official BRD documents in this thread. I note that while you have referred to German regulations, you have not posted any supporting evidence. I do not discriminate against Germans or anyone else, Uwe. I simply dislike your attitude. As for "deleted parts", my posts have not been censored. I merely edited them to make the English easier for you to understand.
Gentlemen, I have my problem with some of your comments, especially about foreign and WW2 decorations and the quality of post war copies.The first question here had been: "Need to know if they are good or bad." with the attatchment "Even if it's an original 1957 that would be okay."
The answers are "fake", "garbage" and "a 1957 issue would not carry a Third Reich era LDO retail code like the L/50 hallmark on these Oakleaves."
My short, precise and well-founded answer was: "Oakleaves could never be an original 1957. Only an original (end in May 1945) or a copy/fake. "
Now we have nearly 40 replies, several of them against my statement and my proofs for my statement.
My post was as follows:
Save your money. By the way, a 1957 issue would not carry a Third Reich era LDO retail code like the L/50 hallmark on these Oakleaves. Regarding these Oakleaves, the leaves are wrong, the silhouette is wrong and the stamp is wrong. Garbage. The miniature Iron Cross ribbon ties are also a bit of a giveaway. The Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross ribbon was usually finished thus but not the ribbon of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Even if you do find a genuine set of Godet Oakleaves or Oakleaves and Swords, as in a set conforming to known wartime issues, with PK or LDO marks, there is no way, unless you really have cast iron provenance, of telling whether they were made in 1944, 1964 or 1974, no matter what some 'gurus' and 'advanced collectors' may claim.There are several definitions of the word "issue". The relevant definition is something coming forth from a specified source. In military and related circles, the word implies that the source is official but when one discusses "a 1957 issue", one is not necessarily implying that the issue is official. When a private firm like the Franklin Mint "issues" a commemorative medal or coin, it merely means that they have produced the medal or coin. To further clarify my statement, it is true that a set of EL or ELS produced in silver or silver-plate in or soon after 1957 primarily as replacements or wearing copies for wartime recipients would not be stamped with a wartime LDO code unless there was some intention to deceive collectors. I do not understand why this statement made you so angry.
And than I found on my concentrated and declaring statement:"The definition of "1957 versions" must be precise, and the only way is the acceptance of the (illustrated) decorations in the "Beilage zum Bundesanzeiger Nr. 41" from 1958."
really surprising the comment : " I already agreed with you about this"
.It must be my unsufficient English, that I could not find that before
.What part of the following two extracts from previous posts of mine do you not understand?
Several firms produced the EL and ELS specifically for supply to veterans after the 1957 proclamation governing the wearing of Nazi-era decorations. These "1957" versions superficially resemble the 1939-1945 type. They are certainly "copies" or "reproductions" but of an official nature and some EL-Träger and ELS-Träger certainly wore them as replacements, along with the 1957-pattern RK.By "of an official nature", I meant that these post-1957 copies or reproductions were officially approved by the West German authorities for wear by recipients, both in BW uniform and civilian dress. Unless you are deliberately trolling me - go here for a definition in simple English: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling - I really do not understand why this statement provoked so much anger from you. Here is another example of my agreeing with you whilst explaining my point of view:
I will agree that these are not 'official' awards because, like the vast majority of wartime awards bearing LDO codes identifying them as retail copies for everyday wear or replacement, they were not given to the RKT/ELT/ELST by the BRD government. However, they were still 'official' in that they were the awards of, effectively, a state that no longer existed and West Germany, the BRD, passed legislation to allow them to be worn by members of the West German military.You seem unable to accept that people can even partly disagree with you.
After that had been clarified, I can now enter the discussion about the quality of post war copies of OL and OLS.It is not the content of the thread, but related. Yes, everybody know, that OL and OLS had been produced as copies or fakes in very different quality from several makers (I think, firms is not broad enough) in several countries all over the world. Copies and fakes of those decorations are not a German problem, it is a worldwide problem.
We use "firm" as another word for "company". Steinhauer & Lück is a firm of medal and badge makers. I would not consider a set of post-1957 EL or ELS produced anywhere outside the area known in 1939 as Großdeutschland to be other than valueless copies or fakes. There is no real problem with fakes of these decorations as far as serious students and collectors are concerned. The most problematic EL and ELS are the Godet pieces, because there is no practical way of telling the difference between a set of Godet EL or ELS made in 1943 from a set produced by Godet in 1973 using the same tooling and methods for supply to the high end collector market through a couple of top dealers in Britain and the United States. This is why I have never made an effort to acquire any Godet EL and ELS, although I might consider a cheap set as long as it came with convincing provenance to enable me to resell it if I wished.
Some final comments. I thought really, that I'm here in a Gentleman's Club. Is it really important, who old a member is? Or ist it more important, what the member know about special subjects? A true Gentleman is able to admit own mistakes also. With it I had no problems in my long life.Had I made any mistakes in relation to 1957 awards, I would happily concede the point. I do not recall anyone here referring to your age, Uwe. The only relevance your age has for me is that I am more inclined to treat you with as much courtesy as possible because you are a senior citizen.
PK
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This is what I was attempting to say. I was not trying to provoke Uwe. I understand his point very well. The discussion seems to have gotten bogged down in semantics. 'Official'...'officially approved'...'implicitly approved'. In the end, the Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords were officially approved. OK, so there is no government document from 1957 dictating the manufacturing specifications to medal firms but this is simply because it was not necessary, as the firms could produce or reproduce these awards according to the original 1939 and 1940 specifications because they did not incorporate the swastika or any other overtly Nazi symbol in their design. The rules mentioned several awards that did not incorporate the swastika in their pre-May 1945 form, as I said. The rules did not mention all of the grades of the RK by name but had each grade been mentioned, then perhaps we would not be engaged in these semantic arguments today. The awards could be worn on riband bars and they could also be worn in their original form, without the swastika, which is why we have photos of BW officers wearing both forms in uniform. I have not seen the ärmelbanden being worn on BW uniforms but I suppose such a photograph might surface some day.
PK
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The definition of "1957 versions" must be precise, and the only way is the acceptance of the (illustrated) decorations in the "Beilage zum Bundesanzeiger Nr. 41" from 1958.
When one say, that only a few decorations without the changed design were 1957 versions too, we must and can say consistently, that nearly all decorations of the world, made post 1957/1958, were 1957 versions. A horror vision!
Yes, indeed. I already agreed with you about this. Let us look at it this way: a PLM made in 1934 is much more highly prized by collectors than a PLM made in 1964, even though the 1964 PLM is just as legitimate as a wearing copy intended for PLMT. I am not talking about fakes or copies made by militaria dealers in Britain and the United States. I am talking about PLM produced by serious, reputable German medal manufacturers. So you understand this? Collectors, including OMSA members, will place more value on a PLM made before the fall of the Third Reich than a PLM made after 1945.
So a set of EL or ELS made by, for example, Steinhauer & Lück between 1957 and, if we take the 27-year period from 1918 to 1945 as a guide, 1974 are surely worth more than than the cheap rubbish produced after the end of the 1970s by firms intending to sell to collectors. The last Wehrmacht veteran retired from the Bundeswehr in 1984. I agree with you that the design of the EL and ELS did not change following the 1957 legislation but I do not agree with you that a set of ELS by a firm like Steinhauer & Lück, made in silver from, say, 1957 to 1970 and supplied in a case for retail purchase by recipients of this grade of the RK is the same as a set of ELS made by John Smith of London, circa 1980, for sale to people in the Portobello Road antiques market are the same thing. That is like suggesting that a 1950s or 1960s PLM by a major German medal manufacturer is the same as a PLM copy by Nicholas Morigi.
I think you are being too absolutist. I also think that you are rather rude and aggressive. I have been collecting and studying the Iron Cross since I was about twelve, in 1973, and I do not know who you are. I have read some posts by you on various forums but I cannot recall reading anything that really impressed me. Sorry to be harsh but there we are.
PK
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Chris and Gordon have summarised my points quite well. I tend to agree with Gordon regarding LDO-marked awards. I think an LDO-marked Zimmermann/Godet RK should sell for about €1,000.00 while the PKA-marked version sells for €10,000.00. This should make Uwe Speedytop happy. Copies are copies are copies. Of course, we're in trouble with an Assmann L/64 "A" Fallschirmschützenabzeichen because it bears two type of maker's mark. But if it bears an LDO mark, it is just a copy.
In the end, the only important part of of the award from the viewpoint of the recipient was the award document. The medal or badge simply indicated that a soldier possessed the document. I remember selling Sean Barry Weske copies to German veterans in London in the late 1970s. They were Nazi-pattern medals and badges and the veterans were very happy with them because they could wear these at private reunions amongst their comrades. The medals and badges were well-made fakes or copies of museum quality, marked with SBW's amusing clover leaf hallmark, based on the SBW mark, but they were real enough for the veterans. Today, we see veterans' document groups with medals and badges purchased in the 1960s and 1970s, both 1957 and 1939-45 types. The 'hardware' is worthless but the documents are real...and the documents are the really important thing where German awards are concerned. The document is the award.
PK
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There is no need to get so angry. As the West German governmental documents referenced below indicate, the wearing of the Iron Cross 1939 was approved by the Bundestag in Section 12.1 of the law of 26.7.1957. This ruling was further clarified by Appendix 13/8, which specifically referred to all grades of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross 1939. Other grades of the Iron Cross 1939 were separately mentioned in other appendices.
Your contention is that there was no need to introduce 1957 versions of the EL, ELS and ELSmB and that therefore there are no 1957 Oakleaves, Oeakleaves & Swords and Oakleaves, Swords & Diamonds. By your logic, there would have been no need to introduce 1957 versions of other swastika-free Third Reich awards like the Ärmelband "Afrika", Ärmelband "Kreta", Ärmelband "Metz 1944" and Ärmelband "Kurland". Yet we find them specifically mentioned in Appendix 13/8, along with other insignia like the Kraftfahrbewährungsabzeichen in Bronze, Silber und Gold.
These awards were officially approved for wear by the West German government and were then reproduced for recipients. In the case of recipients who had lost awards like the EL and ELS, or were victims of theft by enemy soldiers, they were unable to ask the pre-May 1945 German government for replacements but they were able to buy replacements from firms making officially approved replacements, a situation similar to that of veterans of the Imperial armed forces who were able to replace lost Imperial awards approved for wear by the National Socialist government in the 1930s.
Are German government archives good enough for you? From the BRD governmental archives (http://www.documentarchiv.de/brd/1957/titel-orden-ehrenzeichen_ges.html[/utl])
Gesetz über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen.
Der Bundestag hat mit Zustimmung des Bundesrates das folgende Gesetz beschlossen:
Grundsätze für die Verleihung von Titeln, Orden und Ehrenzeichen
(2) Akademische Grade, sowie Amts- und Berufsbezeichnungen werden durch dieses Gesetz nicht berührt.
Besondere Vorschriften für früher verliehene Orden und Ehrenzeichen
Früher verliehene Auszeichnungen
(1) Außer den nach Maßgabe dieses Gesetzes verliehenen Orden und Ehrenzeichen dürfen getragen werden
Verwundetenabzeichen des zweiten Weltkrieges
Verleihungsurkunde, Besitzzeugnis
(4) Die Länder bestimmen die für die Ausstellung von Ersatzurkunden zuständigen Behörden.
Sonderbestimmungen für vor dem 8. Mai 1945 verliehene Auszeichnungen
(2) Träger mehrerer dieser Auszeichnungen erhalten nur einen Ehrensold.
Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik Deutschland,
Orden und Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste im ersten Weltkrieg in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung,
Ehrenkreuz des ersten Weltkrieges,
sonstige Auszeichnungen für Verdienste im zweiten Weltkrieg in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung,
weitere deutsche Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung,
staatlich genehmigte Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung,
ausländische Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihres Klassenverhältnisses.
(3) Orden und Ehrenzeichen dürfen auch in verkleinerter Form getragen werden.
Rückgabe von Orden und Ehrenzeichen
(2) Ausländische Orden und Ehrenzeichen werden von dieser Vorschrift nicht berührt.
Straf- und Schlußbestimmungen[8]
(1) Ordnungswidrig handelt, wer
einen der in § 15 Abs. 1 Nr. 2 genannten Gegenstände herstellt oder in Verkehr bringt (§ 6 Abs. 2).
§ 15 Abs. 2 gilt entsprechend.
(2) Die Ordnungswidrigkeit kann mit einer Geldbuße geahndet werden.
(3) Die Einziehung nach §§ 17 bis 26 des Gesetzes über Ordnungswidrigkeiten ist zulässig.[10]
Aufhebung von Rechtsvorschriften
Folgende Vorschriften werden als Bundesrecht aufgehoben:
Das Gesetz über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen vom 1. Juli 1937 (Reichsgesetzbl. I S. 725);
die Verordnung über Titel vom 30. Januar 1934 (Reichsgesetzbl. I S. 73);
Das Gesetz tritt am Tage nach seiner Verkündung, § 11 mit Wirkung vom 1. Oktober 1956 in Kraft.
*) Muster und Herstellungsvorschriften können vom Bundesministerium des Innern bezogen werden.
[8] Die Überschrift des Sechsten Abschnitts erhielt
(1) Ordnungswidrig handelt, wer
eine Auszeichnung, die in § 6 nicht aufgeführt ist, oder ein dazugehöriges Band öffentlich trägt.
(2) Ordnungswidrig handelt auch, wer
mit Abzeichen mit nationalsozialistischen Enblemen herstellt
(4) Die Ordnungswidrigkeit kann mit einer Geldbuße bis zu zehntausend Deutsche Mark geahndet werden.
"1. entgegen § 14 Abs. 1 Orden, Ehrenzeichen oder dazugehörige Bänder einer Privatperson überläßt,"
Ist eine Straftat nach § 15 oder eine Ordnungswidrigkeit nach § 16 begangen worden, so können
Gegenstände, auf die sich die Straftat oder die Ordnungswidrigkeit bezieht, und
Quelle: Bundesgesetzblatt 1957 I, S. 844-847.
Another governmental document:
Anlage 13/1I. Zugelassene Orden und Ehrenzeichen
1. Soldaten dürfen Orden und Ehrenzeichen tragen:
die nach dem Gesetz über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen vom 26. Juli 1957 267)
zugelassen und in Nr. 2 bis Nr. 7 aufgeführt sind,
die von den Ländern der Bundesrepublik Deutschland verliehen werden und in Nr. 8 aufgeführt
2. Des weiteren dürfen Orden und Ehrenzeichen getragen werden, die von einem
Landesherrn, dem Kaiser, einer Landesregierung, der Reichsregierung, dem Reichspräsidenten
und dem Bundespräsidenten oder mit deren Genehmigung gestiftet worden sind sowie das
Schlesische Bewährungsabzeichen (Schlesischer Adler) und
3. Es dürfen Orden und Ehrenzeichen, die in der Zeit vom 1. August 1934 bis 31.
August 1939 für Verdienste um die Olympischen Spiele 1936, den Luftschutz, das
Feuerwehrwesen und das Grubenwesen gestiftet worden sind sowie die in dieser Zeit gestifteten
staatlichen Dienstauszeichnungen und Treuedienstehrenzeichen getragen
4. Es dürfen getragen werden Orden und Ehrenzeichen, die in der Zeit vom 1.
September 1939 bis zum 8. Mai 1945 von den zuständigen deutschen Stellen für
Verdienste im Zweiten Weltkrieg gestiftet worden sind:
Eisernes Kreuz 1939 in allen Stufen
Kriegsverdienstkreuz und Kriegsverdienstmedaille
Deutsches Kreuz in Gold und Silber
Ehrenblatt-Spange der Luftwaffe
Ehrentafel-Spange der Kriegsmarine
Medaille "Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/1942"
Nahkampfspange des Heeres in Bronze, Silber und Gold 269)
Verwundetenabzeichen 1939 269)
268) § 6 des Gesetzes über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen
269) Bei diesen Ehrenzeichen darf jeweils nur die höchste verliehene Stufe getragen werden.
Sturmabzeichen (allgemein)270)
Panzerkampfabzeichen in Bronze und Silber 270)
Sonderabzeichen für das Niederkämpfen von Panzerkampfwagen usw. durch
Tieffliegervernichtungsabzeichen
Nahkampf-Spange der Luftwaffe in Bronze, Silber und Gold 270)
Panzerkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe in fünf Stufen 270)
Erdkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe in fünf Stufen 270)
Seekampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe
Kampfabzeichen der Flakartillerie
Kampf abzeichen der Kleinkampfmittel in sieben Stufen 270) Bewährungsabzeichen der
Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch-, UbootJagd- und Sicherungsverbände Kriegsabzeichen
Kriegsabzeichen für Marineartillerie
Banden-Kampf -Abzeichen in Bronze, Silber und Gold 270)
Tapferkeits- und Verdienstauszeichnung für Angehörige der Ostvölker
Scharfschützenabzeichen in drei Stufen 270)
Ballonbeobachterabzeichen in Bronze, Silber, Gold 270) Fallschirmschützenabzeichen
Kraftfahrbewährungsabzeichen in Bronze, Silber und Gold 270)
270) Bei diesen Ehrenzeichen darf jeweils nur die höchste verliehene Stufe getragen werden,
Gemeinsames Flugzeugführer und Beobachterabzeichen
Segelflugzeugführerabzeichen Fallschirmschützenabzeichen der
5. Die in Nr. 2 bis Nr. 4 aufgeführten Orden und Ehrenzeichen dürfen nur ohne
nationalsozialistische Embleme getragen werden.
6. Orden und Ehrenzeichen, die von einem ausländischen Staatsoberhaupt oder einer
ausländischen Regierung verliehen worden sind, dürfen getragen werden, wenn die Annahme
genehmigt worden ist 271). Das gleiche gilt für Auszeichnungen ehemals verbündeter Länder für
Verdienste im Ersten und Zweiten Weltkrieg sowie
internationaler Organisationen (z.B. UNO, NATO, WEU).
7. Es dürfen getragen werden staatliche und staatlich genehmigte Orden und
- Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik Deutschland 272)
Großes Verdienstkreuz mit Stern
Großes Verdienstkreuz mit Stern und Schulterband
Ehrenzeichen der Bundeswehr 272)
Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in Bronze
Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in Silber
Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in Gold
Einsatzmedaille der Bundeswehr 273) Grubenwehr-
Ehrenzeichen in Silber und Gold
Orden "Pour le m~rite" für Wissenschaft und Kunst
Änderungsart - J2 - bei BMVg-Protokoll zu be antragen.
272) Nach Verleihung einer höheren Stufe braucht die niedrigere nicht abgelegt zu werden.
Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes 1. und 2. Klasse
Deutsches Feuerwehr-Ehrenkreuz in Silber und Gold
Medaille für Rettung aus Seenot in Bronze, Silber und Gold
Ehrenzeichen der Deutschen Verkehrswacht
Ehrenzeichen des Johanniterordens
Ehrenzeichen des Technischen Hilf swerks in Silber und Gold
Silbermedaille für Behindertensport
Deutsches Sportabzeichen in Bronze, Silber und Gold 274) 275)
Deutsches Rettungsschwimmabzeichen der Deutschen
Lebens-Rettungs-Gesellschaft in Silber und Gold 274) 275)
Deutsches Rettungsschwimmabzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes in Silber und Gold
8. Es dürfen getragen werden Orden und Ehrenzeichen der
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen in Silber, Gold 275) und Sonderstufe
Ehrennadel des Landes Baden-Württemberg
Bayerischer Maximiliansorden für Wissenschaft und Kunst
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen 1. und 2. Klasse am Bande und als Steckkreuz Ehrenzeichen für
Verdienste um das Bayerische Rote Kreuz am Bande in Silber,
Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste von im Ehrenamt tätigen Frauen und Männern
275) Bei diesen Ehrenzeichen darf jeweils nur die höchste verliehene Stufe getragen werden.
Verdienstorden des Landes Berlin
Feuerwehr- und Katastrophenschutz-Ehrenzeichen
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen in Silber und Gold sowie als Sonderstufe in Gold als
Medaille für Treue Dienste in der Freiwilligen Feuerwehr in KuMfer, Bronze, Silber
Oderflut-Medaille, Hochwasser Sommer 1997
- Verleiht zur Zeit keine Orden und Ehrenzeichen
Dankmedaille (Sturmflutkatastrophe 1962)
Ansteck-Abzeichen zur Wilhelm-Leuschner-Medaille Rettungsmedaille
Brandschutzehrenzeichen in Silber und Gold am Bande 276) und in Silber und Gold
Silberne Ehrennadel zum Ehrenbrief des Landes Hessen
Anstecknadel in Silber zur Sportplakette des Landes Hessen
Bernhard-Christoph-Faust-Medaille
Brandschutz-Ehrenzeichen als Ehrenspange und am Bande in Silber und Gold')
sowie als Sonderstufe in Gold als Steckkreuz 276)
Niedersächsischer Verdienstorden (Großes Verdienstkreuz, Verdienstkreuz,
Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste im Feuerlöschwesen (Ehrenzeichen für Dienstzeiten
Gedenkmedaille aus Anlaß der Sturmflutkatastrophe 1962
Gedenkmedaille aus Anlaß der Waldbrandkatastrophe im August 1975
276) Bei diesen Ehrenzeichen darf jeweils nur die höchste verliehene Stufe getragen werden.
Verdienstorden des Landes Nordrhein-Westfalen
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen am Bande in Silber und Gold 277) und als Sonderstufe
(Steckkreuz) in Silber und Gold
Verdienstorden des Landes Rheinland-Pfalz
Verdienstmedaille des Landes Rheinland-Pfalz
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen am Bande in Silber und Gold und in Gold als Steckkreuz
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen am Bande in Silber und Gold und in Gold als Steckkreuz
Anstecknadel zur Freiherr-vom-Stein-Medaille
Feuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen am Bande in Silber und Gold und als Steckkreuz in Silber
Gedenkmedaille aus Anlaß der Waldbrandkatastrophe Weißwasser im Mai/Juni 1992
Brandschutzehrenzeichen am Bande in Silber und Gold 277) und Goldenes
Brandschutzehrenzeichen als Steckkreuz 277)
Erinnerungsabzeichen aus Anlaß der Hochwasserkatastrophe im April 1994
Brandschutz-Ehrenzeichen am Bande in Silber und Gold 277) und Gold als
Medaille für Arbeitsjubilare in Silber und Gold
Ehrennadel des Landes Schleswig-Holstein
Brandschutzauszeichnung als Bronzene Brandschutzmedaille sowie Silbernes und
Goldenes Brandschutzehrenzeichen am Bande 277) und Silbernes und Goldenes
Brandschutzehrenzeichen als Steckkreuz 277)
277) Bei diesen Ehrenzeichen darf jeweils nur die höchste verliehene Stufe getragen werden.
II. Beschreibung der Schnallen und Reihenfolge
Orden und Ehrenzeichen am Bande werden in Originalgröße zur
Großen Ordenssehnalle vereint. Die Ordenssehnalle besteht aus einem 4 cm breiten Zinkblech mit
Nadel und Öse, der Stoffunterlage, dem Ordensband, der Unterfütterung
und dem Orden. Die Unterlage hat auf der Vorderseite zur Befestigung des Ordens eine Stoffauflage
aus schwarzem Futterstoff, worauf der Ring des Ordens so aufgenäht wird,
daß der Orden etwa zur Hälfte über den unteren Rand der Unterlage herausragt. Das Ordensband
ist in gefalteter Form so aufgenäht, daß der Ring des Ordens verdeckt ist.
Bei mehreren Orden ist die Länge der Unterlage dadurch gegeben, daß das Band des
vorhergehenden Ordens das nächste am oberen Rand etwa 0,3 cm verdeckt.
2. Reihenfolge der Orden und Ehrenzeichen am Band der Gro-
Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Eisernes Kreuz der II. Klasse von 1939
Kriegsverdienstkreuz II. Klasse
Sonstige Auszeichnungen für Verdienste im Zweiten Weltkrieg in der Reihenfolge
Ehrenzeichen der Bundeswehr in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
Einsatzmedaille der Bundeswehr
Sonstige deutsche Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
Ausländische Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihres Klassenverhältnisses und
der Reihenfolge der Verleihung.
Als Verkleinerungen in 1,6 cm Größe werden zur Kleinen Or-
Orden und Ehrenzeichen mit Band sowie, frei nach Wahl:
höherwertige Auszeichnungen mit entsprechender Kennzeichnung, die aufgrund der festgelegten
Anzahl weder am Hals noch als Steekorden getragen werden können.
Die Kleine Ordensschnalle besteht aus einem 1,3 cm breiten
Zinkblech mit dünner Scharniernadel und Kugelöse, der Stoff-
278) Bei diesen Ehrenzeichen darf jeweils nur die höchste verliehene Stufe getragen werden.
unterlage, dem Ordensband und dem Orden. Die Ordensbänder haben unaufgenäht
eine Länge von 6 cm und sind, je nach Anzahl der an der Ordenssehnalle befestigten
Orden, 1,0 bis 1,5 cm breit. Sie sind am Blech so zu befestigen, daß die Gesamtlänge 3
cm beträgt. Der Orden hängt frei am Bande.
4. Die Reihenfolge der Auszeichnungen an der Kleinen Ordensschnalle richtet sich
Auf der Bandschnalle werden alle tragbaren Orden und Ehrenzeichen dargestellt. Die Darstellung
erfolgt bei der niedrigsten Klasse einer Auszeichnung durch das
Ordensband, bei weiteren Stufen durch Auflage einer Verkleinerung des
Ordenszeichens oder durch Rosetten und Gold- bzw. Silbersteg. Bei Orden und Ehrenzeichen ohne
Ordensband (z. B. Deutsches Rotes Kreuz, Kampfabzeichen) wird
die verkleinerte Nachbildung der Dekoration auf einer schwarzen Bandunterlage
befestigt. Die Bandschnalle hat eine Höhe von 12 mm. Die Bandbreite beträgt bei
deutschen Kriegs- und Friedensauszeichnungen, die am Hals oder am Schulterband getragen
werden, 40 mm. Diese Dekorationen werden für sich in der obersten Reihe getragen. Sämtliche
anderen Bandstücke, einschließlich aller ausländischen Orden,
haben eine Breite von 25 mm. Sie werden unter den 40-mmBandstücken getragen.
6. Reihenfolge der Dekorationen an der Bandschnalle: Obere Reihe (40-mm-Band):
1. Großes Verdienstkreuz des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und
2. Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes in seinen Stufen
3. Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes mit und ohne Schwerter
4. Olympia-Ehrenzeichen 1. Klasse
6. Großes Verdienstkreuz des niedersächsischen Verdienstordens
7. Verdienstorden des Landes Berlin
8. Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes 1. Klasse (1927 -1937)
9. Orden "Pour le mérite" für Wissenschaften und Künste
10. Johanniterorden in seinen Stufen
Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Ehrenblatt-Spange oder Ehrentafel-Spange
Kriegsverdienstkreuz I. Klasse
Verdienstkreuz am Bande des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Nahkampf-, Frontflug-, Marine-Spangen und Kampfabzeichen mit Einsatzzahlen
Verdienstmedaille des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland Sonderabzeichen
für Panzer- und Tieffliegervernichtung
Sturm-, Kampf- oder Kriegsabzeichen einschließlich der Schilde
Kriegsverdienstkreuz II. Klasse
Medaille "Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/1942"
Leistungs- und Tätigkeitsabzeichen bis 1945
Ehrenzeichen der Bundeswehr in allen Stufen
Einsatzmedaille der Bundeswehr
Sonstige deutsche Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
Ausländische Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihres Klassenverhältnisses und
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PEssentially, my dear Uwe, nothing is black and white. There are shades of grey!
I understand your point and agree with you to a great extent but I think you are perhaps being a bit too dogmatic in your interpretation of the situation. I am talking about officially approved decorations, not 'original' decorations. 1957 BRD legislation reauthorised the production, supply and wearing of every grade of the 1939 Knight's Cross and several firms responded by producing the 1939 Knight's Cross, with the EL, ELS and ELSmB, which were available to RKT not just from the firms directly or from approved retail outlets but through the BW's own retail outlet. The 1957 New Form RK was not a copy. It was a revised but official decoration, intended to replace the RK bearing the forbidden swastika. In a sense, there is a parallel in the issue of the so-called "Vichy" Croix de Guerre and Croix du Combattant bearing the dates of the War of 1939-1940 as replacements for the "Republican" decorations issued by the pre-Armistice Paris government. These "Vichy" decorations were legitimate replacements, just as the RK, EL and ELS produced openly by reputable firms in response to the 1957 legislation in West Germany were legitimate or "official" replacements. I do not think this discussion was about the "originality" of such items. However, early high quality 1957 pattern items clearly intended for bona fide veterans are "original" 1957 pattern replacements. Most of the 1957 pattern awards available today have little intrinsic interest or value to collectors as they are probably produced in China or India and, like 1957 pattern awards from, say, the mid-1980s onwards, are intended for "collectors" or for those silly enough to buy them. A veteran serving in the Bundeswehr who bought a 1957 RK with a set of solid silver EL from the Kleiderkasse to wear with his parade or walking out dress was buying officially approved revised and reproduced decorations to replace those he had received from a previous German government. They were officially approved. They were 'official'.
Perhaps we are having a language and culture problem here. However, why not just agree to disagree? If I one day buy a set of silver ELS by a firm like Steinhauer & Lück, with the little circle on the back, from the family of an ELST who wore the set in the 1950s or 1960s, it will be like owning a PLM made in the 1920s or 1930s and worn by a PLMT. It will be an officially approved copy of a decoration awarded by a previous regime or, one could even say, another country. It will be like owning the L/13 ELS by Meybauer, although this is worth much more than a postwar 1957-on ELS as it was made during the war. But the Meybauer ELS is the same as the S&L ELS in that neither firm was an authorised supplier of the award to the PKA and their ELS are, therefore, both copies of award pieces...and both officially approved and both "original" in that the Meybauer ELS was made before 9.5.1945 and the early S&L piece was made between 1957 and 1981, when production of 'serious' silver pieces ceased. The last Wehrmacht veteran retired from the BW in 1984.
Respectfully,
PK
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That is extraordinary! I have never seen anything quite like that, with the large battle clasps on the one-piece tri-riband. Thank you for showing us.
PK
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This set of ELS by Meybauer is a copy by your criteria. And you are right. It is a wartime retail copy by a firm not authorised to supply the EL and ELS to the PKA. But it is probably worth more than a Godet set because Anneliese Klietmann's incarnation of the firm was producing restrikes identical to the 1940-1945 pieces. At least this is a wartime set! :D
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The phrase "Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes in seinen Stufen" is quite unequivocal. The 1957 legislation allowed veterans to wear their wartime decorations again, as long as no swastika was displayed. This legislation applied to all grades of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, as this phrase indicates. Holders of any grade of the Knight's Cross serving in the Bundeswehr could buy cased RK, EL and ELS made by firms like Steinhauer & Lück from the Kleiderkasse für die BW. S&L marked their EL and ELS with a little circle on the reverse, if memory serves me correctly.
I will agree that these are not 'official' awards because, like the vast majority of wartime awards bearing LDO codes identifying them as retail copies for everyday wear or replacement, they were not given to the RKT/ELT/ELST by the BRD government. However, they were still 'official' in that they were the awards of, effectively, a state that no longer existed and West Germany, the BRD, passed legislation to allow them to be worn by members of the West German military. In contrast, the Austrian government forbade the wearing of Third Reich awards on Austrian uniforms. So, the 1957 awards were officially approved and two or three firms duly produced the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross in all its grades: das "Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes in seinen Stufen".
So, in my opinion, a cased EL or ELS by a firm like Steinhauer & Lück, of a quality indicating late 1950s or early 1960s manufacture, acquired from a veteran who may have bought it from the firm directly or through the KKBw, can fairly be described as a 1957-issue award. However, I would accord the same status to EL and ELS from S&L from, say, the late 1970s onwards. In fact, I would be even more specific and restrict my definition to EL and ELS in 800 or 925 Sterling silver.
PK
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I do understand what you are saying. However, the equation seems very simple and clear to me.
Bundesrepublik Deutschland ab 1957 gemäß Gesetz über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen vom 26.07.1957 + Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes in seinen Stufen =
1. Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939
2. Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939 mit Eichenlaub
3. Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939 mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern
4. Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939 mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten
5. Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939 mit Goldenem Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten
I known of no specific interdiction of the Großkreuz but this is a moot point, given that one example was awarded to Göring so there was no need to produce a 1957 version. Following the governmental directive in 1957, several firms who supplied the BRD government with medals and badges started reproducing EL and ELS, although they had not supplied them during the war. This makes those EL and ELS 1957 reissues.
What is complicated about this interpretation? It is as logical as your interpretation.
PK
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Bundesrepublik Deutschland ab 1957 gemäß Gesetz über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen vom 26.07.1957
40 mm-Bänder:
Großes Verdienstkreuz und höhere Stufen des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes in seinen Stufen
Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes mit und ohne Schwerter
Olympia-Ehrenzeichen 1.Klasse
Bayerischer Verdienstorden
Großes Verdienstkreuz des Niedersächsischen Verdienstordens
Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes 1.Klasse (1922-1937)
Orden Pour le Merite für Wissenschaften und Künste
Johanniterorden in seinen Stufen
25 mm-Bänder:
Verdienstkreuz 1.Klasse des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Ehrenblattspange oder Ehrentafelspange
Deutsches Kreuz in Gold
Eisernes Kreuz 1.Klasse
Deutsches Kreuz in Silber
Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1.Klasse
Verdienstkreuz am Bande des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Rettungsmedaille am Band
Eisernes Kreuz 2.Klasse
Orden und Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste im Ersten Weltkrieg in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
Nahkampf-, Frontflug- und Marinespangen und Kampfabzeichen mit Einsatzzahlen
Verwundetenabzeichen
Verdienstmedaille des Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Sonderabzeichen für Panzer- und Tieffliegervernichtung
Sturm-, Kampf- oder Kriegsabzeichen einschließlich der Schilde
Ehrenkreuz des Ersten Weltkriegs
Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2.Klasse
Medaille “Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42”
Leistungs- und Tätigkeitsabzeichen
Deutsche Friedensauszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
Staatlich genehmigte Auszeichnungen in der Reihenfolge ihrer Verleihung
Ausländische Tapferkeitsauszeichnungen
Sonstige ausländische Auszeichnungen
Alle Auszeichnungen des Deutschen Reiches 1933-45 werden ohne Hakenkreuz getragen.
Folgende Dekorationen der NSDAP und ihrer Gliederungen oder die aus Anlaß der Schaffung
des Großdeutschen Reiches gestiftet wurden, sind verboten
Deutscher Nationalpreis für Kunst und Wissenschaft
Verdienstorden vom Deutschen Adler
SS-Dienstauszeichnung
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 13.März 1938
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 01.Oktober 1938
Medaille zur Erinnerung an die Heimkehr des Memellandes
Ehrenkreuz der Deutschen Mutter
Spanienkreuz
Ehrenkreuz für Hinterbliebene deutscher Spanienkämpfer
Verwundetenabzeichen für deutsche Freiwillige im spanischen Freiheitskampf
Panzertruppenabzeichen der Legion Condor
Ehrenzeichen für deutsche Volkspflege
Deutsches Schutzwall-Ehrenzeichen
Sport-, Leistungs- und Siegerabzeichen
I understand your point, Uwe, in that anyone could take a reproduction set of EL or ELS and claim them to be "official 1957 awards". However, that is not the issue here. When the BRD government authorised the production of denazified awards to be worn by WW2 veterans enlisting in the Bundeswehr, they approved a new "Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes in seinen Stufen" on 26.7.1957. They approved all grades of the 1939 Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross and firms like Steinhauer & Lück, for instance, responded by manufacturing the new type of cross according to government specifications, along with the Oakleaves and the Oakleaves & Swords. Some firms even produced the Diamonds. So, the BRD did officially approve the wearing of the EL and ELS by veterans. It is there in the records in black and white: «in seinen Stufen».
Firms like Steinhauer & Lück, for instance, responded by manufacturing the new type of cross according to government specifications, along with the Oakleaves and the Oakleaves & Swords. Some firms even produced the Diamonds. So, the BRD did officially approve the wearing of the EL and ELS by veterans. It is there in the records in black and white: «in seinen Stufen». Moreover, I remember the Kleiderklasse für die Bundeswehr, offering ELS for DM 18 and EL for DM 6 back in the 1980s, around the time I earned my Fallschirmspringerabzeichen der Bundeswehr. The last Wehrmacht veteran left the BW in 1984 but I've spoken with RKT who recall buying these 1957 decorations through the BW shop back in the 1960s. If the EL and ELS were not officially recognised as legitimate awards by the BRD, what on earth was the official retail outlet of the German armed forces doing selling them?
PK
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711 RKT served in the Bundeswehr. EL-Träger and ELS-Träger serving in the Bundeswehr wore 1957 awards and decorations with the approval of the BRD government. That was the whole point of the introduction by the government of 1957 pattern awards. There was no need to alter the design of some awards, like the EL, ELS, Kretaband, Afrikaband, Kurlandband, Lapplandschild and so on. German firms supplying the revised Ritterkreuz also offered the EL and ELS, even though they had not been authorised suppliers of the higher grades during the war. These higher grades were worn with the approval of the German government, otherwise we would not have photographic evidence of BW officers wearing the EL as we see here, would we?
Regards,
PK
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Yes, indeed! I bought it here in Paris and it was immediately obvious that it was of French origin, because of its size. It is much smaller than the British miniature. Yours is very nice! Can we see the whole set?
Regards,
PK
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You've had this argument with other people at other times. Let us not waste time splitting hairs. As far as I am concerned, any serious German or Austrian medal manufacturer who included the EL and ELS in a post-1957 catalogue offering other officially-sanctioned but denazified 1933-1945 awards was offering officially permitted and approved decorations. In other words, if an Eichenlaubtrager who joined the Bundeswehr after 1957 bought a newly manufactured set of EL to wear with his parade or walking out uniform, he was buying a remanufactured award officially approved for wear with his officially approved 1957-pattern Ritterkreuz. In other words, the postwar EL was officially approved. It was not forbidden. It was approved by the government of the BRD. On the other hand, if you are suggesting that the EL and ELS worn by Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS veterans in the BW, whether made in 1940 or 1970, were official because the Hitler government awarded them, then this surely legitimises the Hitler government. Many awards were worn in their full size form on BW uniforms, including the EK1, EKII, KVK, VA, PKA, ISA etc etc. The KRETA, AFRIKA and KURLAND bands were also reproduced for veterans. These were sanctioned by the legitimate German government in the 1950s, making them continuations of official awards, just like Imperial awards in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. If we apply your strict criteria, we would have to say that no LDO-marked award of the Third Reich era was official, that it was a copy, and therefore worth a fraction of the price of a 'real' one.
PK
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On 11.6.2009, when discussing the 1957 Knight's Cross, you wrote:
It is absolutely correct, that the 57 versions "were not issued or awarded by the government". But they are official, based one the legal regulations, the "Ordensgesetz" from 1957, and based on the official publication by the German Ministry of the Interior, see my link in Post 11.Ref: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=35073&view=findpost&p=348825
Yet here, you seem to be arguing that the 1957 pieces are not official. Or do you just mean that the Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords offered by various firms in their 1957 "New Form" range were not official. It depends on the definition of "official". The 1957 decorations were not awarded by the BRD so some people might say that they were just retail copies. Yet one could say the same thing about LDO-marked awards from the wartime period, the fact that LDO-marked RK, EL and ELS confiscated in 1941 were later awarded by the government aside. LDO-marked awards were official in that they were officially approved. 1957 awards were also official, being officially approved, although I remain unsure about the 1957 Bandenkampfabzeichen I have seen, as I thought that this award was forbidden too.
PK
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Recipients of any military or sports decoration unadorned with the swastika and other NSDAP-related heraldry could wear their original versions of the award in Bundeswehr uniform or in civilian attire when appropriate. However, I believe that the EL and ELS were indeed covered by official regulations published by the Interior Ministry of the BDR at the time, even though the wartime pieces did not carry Nazi symbols. Here is an example of the 1957 rules governing the Ritterkreuz. I expect similar rules were issued regarding the EL and ELS.
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This is a rough but illuminating snapshot of the "transitional" type, a Type 1 whose eagle has deformed talons as a result of an ill-fated attempt to revise the dies as breakage in this area during the hand-finishing process was quite a problem. It is surprising that a high end firm like C E Juncker allowed these out into circulation but wonders never cease. Not only did some aluminium "transitional" badges find their way through the system into the hands of members of the Fallschirm-Infanterie-Kompanie and Fallschirm-Infanterie-Bataillon but several men who ordered the engraved silver versions received these too before the firm simply revised the diving eagle. If an Army Para Badge you are looking at does not conform exactly to the relevant type shown here, it is a fake.
PK
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A pleasure. Here, for eye candy purposes, are the three basic types of Army Para Badge: Type 1, the Type 2b, with the thicker wreath, and the Type 3 in feinzink, supplied to the OKH after the restitution of the badge on 1.6.1943. The same dies were used throughout for the wreaths, while the diving eagles of the Type 2 and Type 3 were struck on the same dies. The increase in thickness of the wreath in 1938 was evidently achieved by adding a shim of sorts.
PK
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Bargains can still be found. I saw this in the display case of a local junk shop - brocante - amongst all the worthless old coins, broken wristwatches and worn out penknives. Walked away with it for €5.00.
PK
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There were not many firms authorised to supply the Knight's Cross: C E Juncker, Godet/Zimmermann, Otto Schickle, Steinhauer & Lück, Klein & Quenzer and Deschler & Sohn. One or two other firms might have produced a few crosses for retail purposes before the LDO clamped down in March 1941. Zimmermann and Godet crosses are identical and very rare so by simple deduction, we can be quite certain that the dies were held by Zimmermann because of Godet's involvement in supplying high quality restrikes of wartime decorations to bent dealers in the 1960s and 1970s. The Klein & Quenzer dies seem to have been used since 1945, like Steinhauer & Lück's dies.
Anyway, that aside, your cross is certainly a fairly recent attempt at replicating the Zimmermann/Godet type. Rather than expend countless words, let's cut to the quick by saying that if you have a Knight's Cross whose die-struck characteristics do not conform precisely to those of known originals by authorised manufacturers of the period, it is extremely unlikely that your cross was produced before 8.5.1945. So-called "Schinkle Form" and half-ring types are known to have been made and worn during the war, along with a couple of other variations visible in undoctored period photo portraits, but these are really the preserve of advanced students and collectors. If you're in the market for a genuine Knight's Cross, as you seem to be, you ought to equip yourself with Gordon Williamson's book for a start. You ought also to try to make the acquaintance of honest dealers - which is not easy - and collectors who might allow you to examine genuine crosses as there is really no substitute for this sort of education.
Attached is a snapshot of a cross supplied as a retail piece by C F Zimmermann. The suspension ring is of the classic Imperial-style ovaloid form preferred by this firm and bears the LDO code "L/52" for this firm. Compare this cross to the cross you have shown here. Examine the beading. You will find many differences, indicating that yours was not produced on the dies used by C F Zimmermann.
Hope this helps.
PK
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Several firms produced the EL and ELS specifically for supply to veterans after the 1957 proclamation governing the wearing of Nazi-era decorations. These "1957" versions superficially resemble the 1939-1945 type. They are certainly "copies" or "reproductions" but of an official nature and some EL-Träger and ELS-Träger certainly wore them as replacements, along with the 1957-pattern RK.
PK
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There are various militaria dealers in Paris and the provinces. Some, of course, are more honest than others. Fred Finel sometimes has nice French uniforms amongst the Allied and Axis stuff, and he speaks fluent English, being married to an English lady.
Overlord
96 Rue Folie Méricourt
75011 Paris
Phone: 011 33 1 43 55 21 19
I think Fred has a website and I will come back to you on that but if memory serves me correctly, it's really for the part of his business that supplies private purchase gear to modern French soldiers.
Another place worth looking at is Le Poilu, which can also be found on the web at: http://www.techmili.com/Magasins/Lepoilu/Le_poilu.htm They have someone who speaks English.
PK
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This are fakes of the Type 2 Army Parachutist Badge struck by C E Juncker in .800 silver as a retail 'upgrade' for men who could prove their entitlement to the badge. Like the aluminium badges, there were three types: the Type 1, the so-called transitional type resulting from an attempt to rework the dies in the area of the eagle's talons, and the Type 2, which had a completely different eagle mounted on a wreath struck on the same dies as previously. They were engraved with the recipient's details: name, rank and the number of his award document or his parachutist licence. They were also engraved with the unit details. I once had a Type 1 aluminium badge engraved by Juncker in the style of its silver counterpart, which features on the cover of Eric Queen's book Red Shines The Sun.
The 1st Edition of Forman shows a fake. The 3rd Edition of Forman shows the 'transitional' silver badge named to Karl Büttner. In Büttner's case, the badge was engraved with his parachutist licence number, which was 68, rather than the number on his award document, which was 53. The pin is clearly a replacement. Given that there are less than twenty known original silver Fallschirmschützenabzeichen (H) in collections, there being twelve when Eric produced his book and a few more discovered since, the chances of finding one in the hands of a dealer or an eBay vendor are extremely slim. Moreover, the only firm that supplied the Army Para Badge during the Third Reich era was C E Juncker, in 1937/38 and 1943/44. If you're looking at a badge that does not confirm precisely to a known original, then it is a fake.
PK
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Very Rare WW1 Trio to a Non-White South African
in Great Britain: Orders, Gallantry, Campaign Medals
Posted
Three of the various medals included in a collection of old wristwatches acquired from a chap returning from South Africa. The War Medal is impressed to C286769 A. Bantum. I kept them because there was something rather poignant about them.
PK