PKeating

I think you will find that any full time SS service counted towards an SS LS award, although they were suspended when the war began in earnest.

The wearer would have been a combattant in WW1. He then serves in WW2, winning the EK2 and qualifying for the Winter War Medal, which places him in Russia in 1941/42. In addition, he was with the armed forces in the late 1930s, as the Flower War Medals show. The Army LS Medals show eight years' service. He then picks up a War Merit Medal and a West Wall Medal. On the face of it, the SS LS Medal doesn't fit.

Were there an LS Cross hanging there, it would be more believable. One could envision a WW1 veteran who went on to serve in the Reichsheer and then the Heer, participating in the Austrian and Czechoslovak annexations and the seizure of Prague and then in Russia, picking up the EK2 along the way. The West Wall Medal could either be for garrison service on the Western Defences or for some kind of qualifying work as a civilian after leaving the army following service in Russia. This would explain the War Merit Medal, which is really a civilian award. Let's say that he was a twenty-five year career soldier. He enlists in 1918, sees action before the end, earning the Hindenburg Cross in 1934, and retires in 1943, moving into defence-related work in a civilian or party/paramilitary capacity.

However, who is to say that he did not transfer into the SS-VT or one of those units as, say, one of the experienced regular army NCOs or Officers brought in by Hausser and Steiner to train the fledgling SS-VT? Who is to say that he was not with the Allgemeine-SS before 1933, thereby racking up enough points to get the 8-Year medal? Kampfzeit service counted, I think, as double time towards an SS LS award, which is how some members were able to qualify for the 25 Year cross.

Unlikely as this bar seems, it is just possible that a man could acquire these awards.

Hope this helps, Darrell.

Regards,

PK

I never knew that. Thanks, John. It is very clear: same artwork, different dies. In other words, this is an extremely scarce badge.

PK

What a lovely badge, Eric! Interesting to see that Juncker sourced the eagle for this badge from Assmann. One sees this kind of thing from time to time.

P

An amazing group! Interesting to see an Assmann eagle with C E Juncker's hallmark, indicating that they must have sourced the eagles from Assmann for the batch from which this badge came.

http://www.majorplm.com/collections/Coll-G...smann-Ivan.html

I wanted to link to the images you'll find by following the above link but no links to "dynamic pages" allowed. Thanks for showing us this group. Paratrooper Number 43! You lucky man, Eric! Rare to have the Prague Bar to a Para too.

PK

It is amusing that the museum in Berlin still insists that "von der Schulenburg's bullet-holed Ritterkreuz" is the real thing. They obtained the von der Schulenburg group from a dealer in 1989. There have been several discussions on the WAF about this cross.

One thing I said at the time was this:

As for "von der Schulenburg's RK", it would be interesting to have a forensic test performed on the cross for traces of the recipient's blood and vital fluids. There were still be traces in the recesses of the cross. A throat wound bleeds and spews mucus and saliva profusely. One could also check the riband. It is interesting to note that we are expected to believe that whoever retrieved the RK from Schulenburg's body also collected the fragments of frame blown off the cross by the impact of the round. What did they do? Rummage about in the gaping hole?

I might add, the fact that the cross is a known fake aside, that I find it hard to believe that von der Schulenburg's unit would return such a grim memento to the family. I know of one case where a bloodsoaked soldbuch was sent back to the soldier's mother but as a general rule, no adjutant or clerk would have sent anything covered in blood or bearing the marks of a fatal wound back to a dead soldier's family. This is why, for example, so many KIA soldbucher coming out of families are duplicates.

An American collector friend - also a well-established author - received a file of expensively-shot photographs of the medals and badges around the time the cross was spotlighted as a fake. This would have been about three years ago. Being more into Imperial stuff, he showed me the file and I was able to explain to him why the cross could not have belonged to the late von der Schulenburg. I think I saved him a lot of money because he was angling to buy the group in, of course, a "discreet" deal.

I think the sale was attempted after the cross had been discussed on an internet forum and exposed as a fake. I have always wondered from which dealer they got the von der Schulenburg group...

PK

That's a very interesting photo. The first Parachute Company of the Royal Romanian Airforce was formed on 10.6.1941, with second and third companies formed in 1942 and 1943 respectively. The 3rd Company was the heavy weapons or support company. In 1943, the 4th Parachute Battalion was formed, comprising these three airborne companies, numbered 8, 9 and 10.

In 1943, the 4th Parachute Bn received M38/40 FJ helmets, MP40s and related equipment, like the pouches in the photo. The Reconnaissance Platoon were issued with Zundapp KS 600 OHV motorcycles, a machine even the Wehrmacht had trouble acquiring. Interestingly, the Romanian paras jumped Irvin 'chutes, like the British, made under licence in Romania. However, from 1943, they may have used German-made RZ 'chutes. By October 1943, there were just 215 jump-trained battalion members. Field-Marshall Antonescu ordered that the battalion be expanded to a regimental strength of around 2,850. By 23.8.1944, with the Soviets at the gates of Bucharest, the 4th Bn was the only operational sub-unit of the regiment, with 861 fully-trained paratroopers and it took part in the fighting around the city.

As for German airborne units in Romania, two companies of Fallschirmj?ger-Btl "Brandenburg" participated in the ill-fated Relief of Bucharest in August 1944, where the German garrison was encircled by pro-Soviet Romanian forces. A spearhead group took control of Otopeni airport at midday on 24.8.1944 and held it until 19:00 hrs, when their comrades were airlanded. I believe that elements of the SS-Jagdverb?nde were involved too although these were not airborne units as such. By 21:00 hrs on 24.8.1944, the encircled German-held areas and HQ were under under German control again and the Romanians promised to allow the German troops to withdraw peacefully to the Yugoslav frontier. However, the Romanians reneged on their promises on 1.9.1944 and allowed the Soviet Army to move against the retreating column. The ORBAT of Fallschirmj?ger-Btl "Brandenburg" was halved in one go as a result and few of any of the Brandenburgers taken prisoner by the Reds ever saw their homelands again.

The Romanian Parachute Regiment was ordered disbanded by the country's new masters in February 1945 because the Soviets viewed the Romanian paras as hostile to the new order.

PK

(Source for info on Romanian airborne forces : http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=26)

Sorry, wrong forum.

P

Classic example from 1942 to airborne gunner with 7. Fliegerdivision. Rubber stamped Heidrich signature.

The FP Nr L 60068 was used at that time by Stab.u.Eihneit-Fallsch.Pz.J?ger-Abt.5 and L 57957 was used by 1.Kp.20.Mar.Bordflak-Abtl, assuming that I read "57957" correctly.

PK

Theory:

This starts to make more sense now that we have looked at some more pages of the paybook. The medical officer who filled this document out on 23.12.1944 might have been referring to Horn's new unit or, at least, the unit to which he was earmarked to be transferred once deemed fit enough. Perhaps Horn ended the war with Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 15 or, rather, the new FJR 15, the original regiment having been destroyed in France. It still doesn't explain the reference to 3. FJD but that is probably just a mistake.

FJR 15 was part of 5. FJD, which had reformed in Holland in October and November 1944. Following the Ardennes offensive, a large part of the division was captured in the N?rnburgring area in March 1945 and the remainder surrendered in the Ruhr Pocket and the Harz mountains. Given that the Germans were hurling just about everyone who could walk or hop into the frontlines by then, it is likely that Horn went into the bag at one of these points, probably into British custody, because he was later re-hospitalised in the British Zone, at G?tersloh.

PK

The Barth photos contain just one FJ-related image: a relative after getting the EKII at Korinth. The rest are family and Flak-related photos. I suppose he didn't have time to take photos after his transfer. They must have been able to hear Patton's artillery as they did their last drop over the Dreux DZ that July! That

said, some of his photos are wonderful if you're interested in heavy flak units.

I would hazard a quick guess that the FP Nr you're asking about probably relates to the hospital in Prague. It's hard to read but I'm working on it.

This page is nice because you have the entry for the Fallschirmsch?tzen-Abzeichen with the date of award given as 10.6.1944 as well as the Verwundetenabzeichen in Silber on 20.11.1944. So even though Horn came late to the airborne, he was jump-trained, which is a bonus. We know he was, of course, because of the photo but it's nice to have it in the paybook. The entry actually looks as if it has been authorised with the Prague hospital stamp, which would suggest that his paybook was not fully up to date when he was wounded and evacuated.

The entry for the VWA in Gold is on the slip added by Page 21, along with details of pay he received whilst in hospital. He was moved from Reserve-Lazaret I Prag to Reserve-Lazaret VI Prag and was paid there up to 28.2.1945. He was given three weeks' home leave from 30.11.1944 to, it looks like, 11.12.1944. He reported to 1./Fallschirmj?ger-Ersatz-Bataillon on 22.2.1945, which I think was stationed at Aschersleben and was the depot unit for I. Fallschirm-Korps. Mind you, the stamp doesn't specify which Parachute Replacement Battalion Horn was sent to. But he was certainly back in uniform and looking none-too-happy, as the paybook photo shows.

PK

Hi

I would just like to show you all a few scans of my new small FJ group that pitched up on my doorstep today. The poor guy was transferred from LW Flak to FJ in 1944, only to be wounded to the head and lose an eye. This is my first soldbuch so I am interested in your comments.

What a great 5. Fallschirmj?ger-Division soldbuch and document group! The soldbuch photo was obviously taken after Horn's wound: look at his left eye and the obvious damage to his adjacent hairline.

Prior to transferring to the paras, Otto Horn?s last Flak unit was 4./leichte Flak-Abteilung 731, formed from 2./ leichte Flak-Abteilung 726 in the summer of 1943 and part of Flak-Regiment 85, under 5. Flak-Brigade, headquartered in the Breton city of Rennes. 5. Flak-Brigade?s HQ moved to N?mes in February 1944 and then to Orange in March 1944. FR85 was based in Tarascon.

Fallschirm-Panzerj?ger-Abt 5 was formed in Reims in March 1944 and Obergefreiter Horn arrived there on 20.4.1944. Just under a month later, he was sent to Fallschirmschule 1. Whoever filled in the entry did not specify which Schulerkompanie Horn joined but it was probably 5. Schulerkompanie, based at Dreux. The Parachute Training Companies of Parachute Training School 1 were based at several airfields around France, including Orange, which may be where Horn first met the Fallschirmj?ger. On the other hand, he may just have been told to volunteer!

As you can see from the above documents, Obergefreiter Walter Barth was another former NCO recruited from the Flak for 5. FD. Note that, like your man Horn, Barth wears a cloth FSA (Fallschirmsch?tzenabzeichen) in the photo on his Parachute Licence. Note, too, the special award document for the cloth version of the Parachutist Badge. Barth passed his jump course at Dreux and was posted to Fallschirm-Sanit?ts-Abt 5, which was of course part of 5. Fallschirmj?ger-Division.

Horn arrived back at Fallschirm-Panzerj?ger-Abt 5 on 13.6.1944. The unit was destroyed along with most of 5. FJD in Normandy. Horn was obviously severely wounded, evacuated and ended up in hospital in Prague, where the medical officer filling out his Wound Badge documents appears to have been rather confused. He places Horn in I./Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 15, which is feasible as Horn could have been attached to FJR15 during the Normandy fighting. FJR15 fought with 17. SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division and was effectively destroyed in August 1944.

There again, perhaps Horn found himself retreating with surviving elements of FJR15. Any chance of seeing some more pages of the soldbuch? Administratively, he ended up with a depot unit, probably on light duties with a bit of instruction of recruits thrown in but he was clearly in a bad way, as the document from G?tersloh, issued in September 1945, shows as he was back in hospital again as a result of epilepsy brought on by his head wound.

Again, wonderful group! And I love the total mess the medical officer makes of Horn?s unit! One sees this kind of thing from time to time, particularly in the case of Wound Badge documents filled out by doctors who were really civilians in uniform and did not know or care much about military bureaucracy.

PK

Nice screwback but it seems to be incomplete.

PK

Well, Brian, I have read the eBay ad in which the Hansen "Rounder" was offered for $3,000.00 on a Buy-It-Now basis. It is certainly what one would call close to the knuckle but then again, Tom Hansen isn't exactly hard up for money and two factors strike me as quite revealing of a subtle sense of humour: first of all, only a complete fool would think he was getting a genuine Ritterkreuz as discussed in one of the foremost reference works for three grand and, secondly, maybe he was poking fun at Gordon Williamson's inclusion of this type of cross in his reference book. Dr Hansen did not declare the cross to be original. Anyway, people in glass houses oughtn't to throw stones! The way in which Dr Hansen decided to dispose of the "rounder" once he had carried out his research is not really relevant to his findings, is it?

PK

I think I have answered the points made by George Stimson and Dave B. Yes, of course, I know about the Deumer connection but I have never seen a cross that could be identified definitively as having been made by Deumer. As you say, George, we cannot be sure that Deumer did not make Ritterkreuze but it is just as possible that they bought them in, as Godet bought in crosses from C F Zimmermann.

We know that the firms I listed were approved producers and suppliers of the RK. We think there may have been some other makers, certainly before the 1941 tightening-up, but that is all that we can say, based upon factual evidence. The line drawing catalogue listing George showed us evokes the overall form of the so-called "half-ring" or "three-quarters ring" RK, which those of you with Gordon Williamson's recent book to hand can see on Page 274. Some refer to this as the "Schinkelform Knight's Cross".

Gordon refers to an example in a Godet carton, which would not rule out manufacture by Deumer, especially as we know that Godet sourced crosses, like the ones in the special cased EK/RK ensembles of 1939, from Zimmermann. There again, maybe Godet did make these crosses and perhaps they decided to buy in Zimmermann crosses because it was pointed out that their cross was not sufficiently close in appearance to the specifications.

Who knows? This is all informed hypothesis but no more than that. One crosses the line when one writes hypothesis up as fact, supported by fabricated stories. That Hansen appears to have been gagged - and it is not as if we have not seen this kind of thing before where the sites in question are concerned! - makes it harder to refute the conspiracy theorists who jump on stories like this. You can shoot at the messengers as much as you like but it is too late: the message has been delivered.

PK

Dietrich,

I did indeed write that approved wartime RK manufacturers included C E Juncker Godet, Zimmermann, Klein & Quenzer, Steinhauer & L?ck, Otto Schickle and Deschler & Sohn. I then wrote: "That's all, folks. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change anything."

On the basis of this sentence, you suggest that I am against further investigation. That just shows how little you know about me. I am not against research at all! I am however against the presentation of hypotheses as fact, particularly when supported by falsified evidence.

In saying that no amount of wishing thinking can change the facts as they stand, I meant no more than that. If someone comes up with verifiable evidence that Ritterkreuze zum EK 1939 were ordered from firms hitherto unknown or unaccepted as officially approved suppliers of the RK, that will be great!

I am aware of the examples you cite although I am wary of some of the sources, as you might know! It would be foolish to imagine that no RK were made by unauthorised firms before the LDO crackdown around March 1941.

However, if we are too ready to accept variant RK as examples of pre-March 1941 manufacture by unknown makers, this is tantamount to handing carte blanche to fakers and bent dealers to dream up scams like this "rounder" thing.

Can W?chter & Lange produce hard proof that they made RK between 1939 and 1945? I have heard and read this story but nobody has yet scanned and posted, for instance, a letter from W&L containing such statements.

As for the "unknown" cross in the Niemann catalogue, it could well be a cross purchased by the RKT or even a cross confiscated by the LDO in 1941 and subsequently awarded to the man from stock. Who knows? As such, it is admissable as a "probable". It is probably a wartime piece.

There again, when George Petersen bought the Paul Conrath RK documents from Niemann some years ago, they came with enough "dead solid provenance", as you put it, to convince Petersen that they were genuine. As we now know, Niemann was brokering them for another dealer and they were fakes.

Returning to this "unknown" RK in Niemann's catalogue, it is reassuring that no identical crosses appear to have been offered for sale anywhere...yet. Perhaps I am overly cynical, old chap, but I am quite experienced when it comes to high end fakers and their methods, as some people here know!

In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with carrying out research but publishing it as fact or likely fact, backed by by fabricated evidence, is rather irresponsible, isn't it? Fortunately, it was exposed - despite strenuous efforts to gag the whistleblower! - before lots of less-experienced collectors bought "Rounders"!

I trust I have made my position, as publisher of Dr Hansen's findings, crystal clear? In the interests of even-handedness, of course, I intend to publish your article as well, Dietrich, just as it appears on Brian's website. That way, readers can examine the evidence and arguments and draw their own conclusions.

I think you will agree that I really could not be fairer than that.

Paddy

Points taken. I only wanted to make sure that both sides of the "Rounder" story were available to readers because "Rounder" crosses are clearly modern confections aimed at defrauding collectors and it is a serious matter. Issues like this are always contentious because money is involved.

PK

Approved wartime RK manufacturers: C E Juncker; Godet*; Zimmermann; Klein & Quenzer; Steinhauer & L?ck; Otto Schickle; Deschler & Sohn.

*Godet's RK clearly produced and supplied to them by Zimmermann.

Some early war variants, like the "half-ring" and so-called "Schinkelform" RK known and recognised as legitimate. Some people believe the "half-ring" crosses to be Deschler pieces. The Steinhauer & L?ck and Klein & Quenzer dies are known to have been used since 1945.

That's all, folks. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change anything.

PK

Hallo Dietrich,

Actually, I am one of the people who pointed out that you approached the "rounder" subject with circumspection. As for my remark about pseudo-academic articles, it was actually directly elsewhere. I do not agree with everything you have written, as you know, but I have always expressed admiration for the way in which you make your points. I think, however, it is fair to say that your articles about Knights' Crosses have been tilted towards convincing readers that Steinhauer & L?ck RK with beading flaws are wartime and that "rounders" could well be wartime.

Well, the cat is out of the bag now about these so-called "rounders"! Anyone considering the purchase of one of these hitherto unlogged variants should read this dissertation by Dr Tom Hansen.

This rash of pseudo-academic articles about rare or valuable decorations - see the thread elsewhere on this website about the 1914 Bar to the 1870 EK2 for another example - by people who no traceable history as far as anyone who has been collecting this stuff for decades is concerned appears to conform to classic disinformation strategies.

PK

No German items captured from Allied forces, I am afraid, but here is a rare photo of members of the 369th RIUS - popularly known as the Harlem Hell Fighters - sailing home. Note the man wearing the M16 or M17 stahlhelm.

PK

Thank you, Brian! Terrific images. They appear to be from period journals/magazines. The second image appears to be a detail from a photograph of quite a senior man. I always felt that the WHS must have been worn in this manner but had never seen any photographic evidence until now. Interesting, too, to see the 1895 Oakleaves worn like this.

PK

Good point. Howver, given that the ensemble is totally irregular, might it not have been concocted by a winner of the 1870 EK2 who then received the 1914 EK1 and subsequently wished to mark the fact by attaching his WHS to his 1914 EK1? After all, he would not have received a 1914 EK2, would he? And the WHS has nothing to do with the EK1. It is a 2nd Class award. He would have received the WHS. Whatever the case, it is a private confection and one that would only be tolerated in the case of a relatively powerful serving soldier or a veteran in civilian clothes or a veterans' association uniform. By the way, we know that the WHS was worn on the ribbons of court-mounted crosses but could it also have been worn on ribbons through uniform buttonholes in the manner of the devices worn on Prussian order ribbons?

PK

Kevin, a chara,

Beir Bua agus Beannacht! N?l ach beag?in?n Gaeilge agam. The photograph is actually a location still from an RTE production. The Raleigh or Moulton bicycle made up from parts gives it away...probably from stolen parts! And there was I thinking anyone in Dublin could afford colour photography back in the 1940s or early 1950s! It looks like the back Collins Barracks but I'll have to check my references because I didn't get over to the North Side much when I was a kid! The streets certainly resemble the Arbour Hill area. Romania, eh? I've been there once or twice.

PK

Joe Campbell's EK1 conversion is very interesting. It is certainly non-regulation given that the WHS signifies a second award of the 1870 EK2 and must have been done by someone who could get away with wearing it either by dint of being too senior to be collared about it or in retirement. It is beautifully done.

PK