Lapa

There IS a (small) line under s/n. 2213.

Christian,

Nice pictures, but they do not allow to make an exact diagnosis of the patients, as details are at an almost microscopic level.

Anyway, from the outside, global look of it, your 2213 looks OK (but need to verify some other details); your 1604 displays several signs typical of an upgraded 3rd class (shape of the top ray, lack of line under SN, handwriting of the SN, etc). This would also explain the difference in gold plating

Marc

Dear Andreas,

... and Alexei posted in the "other" Soviet forum, that he regards your Motherland 2cl s/n. 718 to be authentic .

So I guess, that there are some possibilities to check the originality of a Motherland 2cl - otherwise the collector wouldn't have paid about USD 2.500,- for that order at the Helsinki-auction last year.

As you already pointed out, Motherlands 3cl up to s/n. 3300 are extremly rare. I would say, that the market value of such a low numbered, early and in most cases awarded & researchable Motherland 3cl might equal the price of an unawarded Motherland 2cl. So it wouldn't make any economic sense to mutilate such a rare Motherland 3cl and invest a decent gold plating, if there isn't a surplus in business .

My theory is, that the kind of gold plating might indicate, if the item is autentic or a fake .

There might have been 2 series in manufacturing the Motherland 2cl and attaching the gold plating:

- a first series (maybe up to s/n. 2000 ?) with that rather pale goldplating + longer screw, as we can see with your item or on Andrew's website

- a second series (maybe from s/n. 2001 up to s/n. 3300 ?) with the more bright gold plating + shorter screw.

If you compare a genuine Motherland 2cl with on of the two kinds of gold plating to a (rather well made!) copy of the former Russian company CAPRAL you will see the difference immedeatly: CAPRAL's gold plating is much more going to a red colour tone, than a late Motherland 2cl.

I guess, that it is hardly possible to attach a 100 % matching gold plating to an "improved" Motherland 3cl. Specially not to fake an early Motherland 2cl with that pale & dull gold plating and with these stains of patina on the gold plating.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of Andrew and Alexei about the possibilities of authentication in the case of Motherland 2cl .

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

It is possible to differentiate between 2nd and 3rd class, but it is a very tedious and tough process. Igor Pack did an excellent survey of confirmed 2nd classes, from which he came up with some very detailed fine points. To make things short, 2nd and 3rd classes were struck with different dies, ans it is possible to identify which is which. Gold plating is NOT a reliable indicator of class, as its state of preservation may vary greatly depending on many external and chemical factors.

From the look of Andreas' order #718, some of the key watermarks of a 2nd class are indeed present. Now, to tell for sure beyond that would require very hi-res scans of some specific areas.

Marc

I would like to take the opportunity to say Welcome to hipnos, an newcomer in the Quiz !!!!!

Cheers.

Ch.

Guys,

Re-reading my previous hint, I must precise/clarify one thing: there was a village standing in the very spot where the battle took place; this village was entirely destroyed and was never rebuilt. Now, the name of the place is NOT the name of the village itself (I'd be really surprized if anyone came up with the actual name of the village).

Marc

JimZ:

Thank you for posting the documents!

Award Card

!. Litemin

2. Nikolai Konstentinovich

3. Major

4.Male

5.1903

6.City of Leningrad

7. not party member

8.middle

9.Rusian

10. 5-1920-2.1933, 5.1935

13. City of Leningrad house 13 apartment 4

awards

Red banner

Order of Lenin

Red Banner 2

Regards

Rick

Rick,

13. City of Leningrad, Goncharnaya Street, house 13 apartment 4

Marc

It could be Riga, and the River Dvina???

Hipnos,

No, that is very far from the place we are looking for.

Marc

Christian,

Nice job summing up things

Marc

Dear Marc,

so - like in playing tennis - I have to give a w.o. .

My abilities of using GOOGLE in Russian cyrillic language are very, very limited .

Best regards

Christian

Well, it seems that major events that took place on the Eastern Front are not too well known at all in the West

OK, one more hint (sorry for the movie parody): a river runs through it.

Tikhvin 1941

Dear Marc,

Demyansk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket is even more far away ...

My last try:

The battle of Tikhvin in 1941.

The German Heeresgruppe Nord initially succeeded in occupying Tikhvin on November 8. However the newly-appointed commander of the Soviet 4th Army, Kirill Meretskov, bogged down the Germans by applying active defense and constant counterattacks. He then went on the offensive and on December 10 recaptured Tikhvin.

In the midst of the battle Stavka ordered Meretskov to organize a new Volkhov Front. By December 30 Meretzkov had forced von Leeb's troops back to positions from which they began their Tikhvin offense. According to one of the leading historians of the Eastern Front, David Glantz: "the concept of blitzkrieg failed for the first time in the Second World War... anticipating [the Soviet victory at Moscow]".

But Tikhvin has been rebuilt after the GPW ...

O.K., if my guessing is wrong again, I will give w.o.

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

You are getting closer with Tikhvin, but still quite far from the place we are looking for...

Marc

Christian,

That's not it, you went too far away.

So, how about one more hint: there also the town/village (although not a fortified one) was totally destroyed, and has never been rebuilt.

Marc

Early Motherland 2cl - pale & dull gold plating

Christian,

Could you please post hi-res scans of both front and back of each order.

Marc

Dear Marc,

many thanks .

"Soviet Verdun" & hughe losses indicate to the period after the Vlasov-debacle .

One of the meat grinding Volkhov battles of 1942/43 .

When to start and when to end ?

At the Novgorod Kremlin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Kremlin there is a big monument commemorating the battles against the Nazis at the river Volkhov:

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2008/post-922-1202755885.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2008/post-922-1202755901.jpg

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

The question refers to one very specific location.

Marc

Volkhov Front

Dear Marc,

taking the losses into account (more than 300.000 casualities) I might opt for the Volkhov Front (Волховский фронт): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkhov_Front

There had been a saying among Red Army soldiers: "Better 3 times Stalingrad, than 1 time Volkhov Front!".

The spearhead had been Vlasov's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Vlasov 2nd Shock Army: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Shock_Army

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

You definitely are on the right track. Now, you need to be much, much more specific than that

Marc

Sergey & Marc,

Thank You!!! Is there a book that covers Militia shoulderboards?

Doc

Doc,

Yes there is: History of Russian Uniform - Soviet Police 1918-1991 by Leonid Tokar.

Good thing that you asked, I opened my copy and found your white boards: Officer's shirt boards, introduced by Prikaz MVD CCCP 238 on 24/8/1972 (as far as I know, the model remained the same until the end of the USSR).

Marc

PS: let me know if you need a copy of the book.

Dear Christophe,

well, I had been also wrong with Kursk, Smolensk or Rzhev ...

In the south we also have Sevastopol, as a true fortress like Verdun ...

Close to Leningrad we also have the famous Volokhova Front, with losses of the Red Army around the asked 300.000 .

Best regards

Christian

Guys,

OK, let's clarify things here. The Verdun designation does not come from the existance of forts or fortresses; it comes from the fact that this place has been most certainly the utmost "meat-grinder" of the whole eastern front in term of casualties per square km (or m, or cm), and from the incredible amount of iron/lead/steel/whatever other metal that has been thrown there.

Both Christophe (at least earlier...) and Christian are on the right track

Marc

Sergey,

Are you saying that they are Militia?

Doc

Doc,

That is what I suspect too: the gray ones are very similar to Police boards.

Marc

That's better.

And reverses of stars should be shown.

Definitely

Marc, did you mean Lieutenant-General of Aviation I.I. Borzov? In their book about the Order of the Red Banner Durov and Strekalov list the S/N's of the Red Banners 1 to 6 of Borzov:

Nr. 10731

# 2 nr. 494

# 3 nr. 577

# 4 nr. 74

# 5 nr. 86

# 6 nr. 15

So, if your 'Burcev' is 'Borzov', the group above might not be real, as it has no RB # 4. Also, Durov doesn't list a # 7 in Borzov's list, as they did with Pstygo for example (# 7 S/N 2).

Auke,

No, it is not Borzov, it is 'Бурцев'. I have to see if I wrote the numbers somewhere; unfortunately I did not have all the time I wanted to admire, to take pictures, and to write all the specifics down.

Marc

I have a question about suspension, as it looks odd to me.

It seems it's combined ot two parts: 3-place aluminum and 4 place brass.

Why do we have the following:

- what was the need to put two of them together instead of using brand new 7-place suspension?

- how are they held together - I don't see any joins?

- you can see that aluminum suspension has brass one placed on top of it, but the needle is still there, essentially making it not functional. Why wasn't the needle removed? it serves no purpose and the construction would have been more solid without the needle.

- why earlier awards (1 through 3) are placed on newer aluminum suspension, while more recent awards (4 through 7) are on older brass hanger?

- how exactly was this suspension worn - with pin needle going only through half of the suspension?

William

William,

I, unfortunately, cannot answer your questions. This medal bar is held at the Central Museum in Moscow. It is not on display, but I was lucky enough to be shown a few things held in storage, this one among other things.

On the matter of why join 2 suspensions instead of buying a longer one, it was not unusual for a veteran to fix his smaller suspensions together, probably a matter of savings (the USSR was a heaven for innovative re-use of almost everything). I have handled quite a few of these; they are either riveted, or soldered, or glued. I once even had one which was held by metallic thread!

Marc

.

KDVR,

Maybe it's the lighting, but I don't like it at all. The engraving looks very basic.

Marc

And the reverse...

Guys,

A couple of nice pics that may shed a bit of light on the topic at hand: group of General Burcev (currently held at the Central Armed Forces Museum)

Marc

KDVR,

Some pictures are not enough to tell for sure (Odessa & Sevastopol).

Belgrade is not good, and I don't like the Defense of Soviet Arctic. The other ones are OK; by the way, nice Vienna medal, a late variation.

Marc

Hi

What do you think of this one, bought as a possible fake

Order of Victory

OoV,

Your medal is definitely a fake without a hint of a doubt. Most telling (apart from the ring) are the engraving (faces, etc), the shape of the letters, and most importantly the background pebbling which is way to big.

Marc

Copy/repro/fake 2nd class

[attachmentid=63739]

Jim,

Any chance you could post hi-res scans of the front and back of the medallions?

Marc

Hello,

since my pocket money wouldn't allow me to buy an awarded piece, here's a (wear? museum?) copy, purchased in 1988 in Warsaw: white gold, gold, sapphires and synthetic rubies. The stones are most accurately set and the overall appearance is impressive. The enamel on the "ПОБЕДА" scroll and the "CCCP" have been (quite badly) restored from me.

The piece measures 70 x 72 mm.

Best wishes,

Enzo

Enzo,

Where are the sapphires on the Order of Victory???

Marc