pluribus

Badge of the Single Armoured Car Group of the Defence League Tallinn regional unit.

The badge is extr. rare. 89 men served in the unit in 1939.

Kev in Deva,

Sorry but my English is not so good to explain all the half-tones between black and white. You are not a youngster ( like myself) and it`s not my intent to change your faith.

But one must remember we are all human beings and please don`t be so determined in the topic which is obviously too inpenetrable for you. ( I mean history of Baltics).

pluribus

Hello,

Looks like a ribbon to the Imperial Russian Order of St.Stanislaus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Stanislaus

Here is the original ribbon of Imperial Russian order.

pluribus

Dear Gentlemen,

The Estonian national army was born in 1917. Most of the military units and institutions had their badges.

The badges are rare as the right to wear the badge was enjoyed only by field officers and NCOs who had exemplary served in the unit for at least six months. The units were small and only 2000 men obtained the education of a proffessional officer between the two World Wars.

So 50-200 is common number of issued badges for most of the units.

Most of the military badges were made by Roman Tavast`s firm who`s output is distinguished for it`s exeptionally high workmanship and a good taste. Some famous artists, like P. Luhtein, G. Reindorff, designed Estonian military awards.

Here you can see Motorized Tank Regiment badge. 450 men including 30 officers served in MTR in 1939.

Well it is a quite obvious relationship, seeing that soldiers of Estonia and Latvia were not awarded Iron Crosses from 1813, 1914, and the swastika on the front might give it away that its a NAZI award, as well as any other NAZI award the veterans are sporting.

It would be far better if the Estonians awarded their spldiers a local award, but in most armys when their has been a change to the staus quo get rid of the preceeding awards from foreign countries, (especially when the foreign power is a loser in the war) andreplace them with more acceptable awards.

The only people who would want to sport such pieces are supporters of the Nazi and the moronic neo-nazi racists of today.

Kevin in Deva.

Iron Cross with swastika is simply Iron Cross of 1939-1945 which was awarded mostly for the bravery. You can`t change the history scratching off or baning swastikas on the awards.

Anyway, you have your point of view and I have mine.

If you have even a small interest to why it is like it is in Estonia, please read the links I gave above.

Best,

pluribus

So are you saying the Estonian people are happy to see their veterans wearing Nazi decorations

Kevin in Deva

Estonians see them wearing bravery awards which they were awarded for the fight against Soviet occupation.

I can`t see any relation between Iron Cross and nazism. Also we have no problems with veterans wearing the Red Star orders. By the way, many of Estonians were mobilized to the Red Army.

Personally as a collector I like Red Star very much and I have large collection of ORS and many other soviet awards and items.

pluribus

Christian L.

The badge is a five year long-service badge of the Union of Voluntary Firemen. It was instituted about 1920 and issued in this style for various years of service until they were re-designed in 1937. The number of years was initially indicated by Arabic numerals and later by Roman numerals. Before 1940 all firemen's decorations were made by the firm of VMT Roman Tavast, and their name should be on the back plate, if it is original to the badge. Some older badges were also made by the company of Rekkor and Kattenberg, goldsmiths in Tallinn.

There were also another set of medals issued as national awards for the fire service consisting of silver and gold medals and crosses. A very elaborate system for such a small country, but it created one of the most attractive set of fire awards you'll find from a single country. The lower grades are fairly common now, and good quality higher grades still usually command a premium.

A nice award - Thanks for showing it.

FireMedals

Firemedals,

Very correct information.

I will add some photos of badges from my collection to illustrate this topic.

This is the Higher Diligence Badge. It`s extr. rare as awarded less than 100 ex. in 1927-1940.

It`s made of silver, gilded, enamels. It`s big and massive and it has a multipiece construction. Made by Roman Tavast.

Thank you.

It is not my purpose to ask some sympathy.Our veterans who fight on the German side do not need abroad sympathy- they need sympathy of their own nation and they finally have it fair and square after the 40 years tribulation.

pluribus

...and here is a badge to the pilot-observer.

Dear pluribus,

my comments are made to the wearing of items with the NAZI swastika, these medals were awarded by a Nazi regime to their allies in WW2.

The ss were brainwashed political robots who enforced the nazi doctorine on their own people first, then onto the other nations of Europe.

I must ask did Estonia and Latvia offer any resistance to the German occupation of their county? or, did they do what they did when the Soviets arrived, stayed quite and said nothing.

Coming from a country who lost many people fighting against the nazi's and its allies, I like many in Europe feel an intense dislike to this symbol because of what it represents, to the many victims of nazi tyrany.

Because they were allied with the losers of WW2, Estonia and Latvian WW2 veterans could show some sympathy to the victims of the nazi's by wearing versions of the awards that have been de-natzified.

Just because your countries have seperated from Communist control, does not mean you rewind the clock back to pre-communist occupation, and carry on like nothing has changed since 1945.

Kevin in Deva.

Dear Kevin in Deva,

Did you ever see soviet veterans wearing their awards that have been de-sovietified? I never did.

Also, have you ever heard about diference between waffen-SS and allgemaine-SS?

By the way, not even one Estonian soldier belonged to nazy party.

About resistance http://www.hot.ee/evlliit/okup_3.htm

About resistance to the soviets http://www.balticsworldwide.com/forgotten.htm

pluribus

A beautiful award. What are they awarded for? Is the new (post communist independence) pilot badge similar to the WWII type? Do you have any photos of the current pilot badge?

Regards,

Lee

Hello,

Here you can see the current pilot badge.

pluribus

Hallo Gents,

Personally I find it disgusting that Estonian & Latvia to name but two of the former Communist states, totaly disregard regulations concerning the Nazi awards, it seems Fascism is alive and well and promoted in these countries.

Quite recently there was a statue dedicated to Latvian ss scum and a Latvian Army Band was sent along to play some music for the large crowd of old Latvian nazi veteran & young Latvian neo-nazi's who attended.

Ok, so they were occupied by the Russians and controled by Communisum, but you dont rewind the clock back to 1944 and continue like nothing happened.

And whats with the "plonker" at WAF "Quote Theodor: Great pictures!!! And I find it wonderful to see German WWII awards been worn today, something extremely rare to see, I believe! After all these are not political, but real bravery awards... End of Quote.)

Kevin's Non Political Rant is now over!!

Kevin in Deva

Dear Sir,

First, Latvia and Estonia are not former communist states. They are independent republics which were occupied by the Soviet Union.

Second, this is unbelievable if somebody in the military history forum says scum to the soldiers, no matter on what side they battled.

And last but not least, as you know there are always two sides of the coin.

pluribus