lilo

Hello again cimbineus, I found a couple of photos that I think are a little more clear in respect of those I posted at the start of this topic. The first following photo is a better pic of the award given to General Giuseppe VALLE, that I already had posted on my post #28 - What do you think : is it an ‘ORDER’ or a ‘Cross’ ? - Which class is it ?

Hi cimbineus, Many, many thanks for your very precious Help : I really have appreciated it ! Kind Regards Lilo

Hello Cimbineus, What a fantastic explanation ! I have read it with GREAT interest and pleasure (more than a time); through it, I have fully understood the difficulty in establishing if the award was a CROSS or an ORDER and that only a visual handmade exam or the knowledge of the awarding date can give a certainty. However, for what has been discussed above and for what I have understood, from here on, I’ll assume that, in regards of the awards made to the Italians, the probability that they received the ORDER instead of the Cross is the highest in regards of the probability. Following, I’m posting a photo of the award given to Italian Admiral Luigi RIZZO by Miklos Horthy (both were direct opponents during WW1). This photo should be a little more clear and it will give you a better possibility to establish if it is a 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit : would you give me a confirm, please ? Best Regards Mauro P.S. Many thanks for posting futher photos of this splendid Order, it’s a pleasure to admire it !

Hello cimbineus, Many tanks for the patience and kindness that every time you show in answering my numerous questions ! Also, many thanks for posting the very beautiful photos of this Order. I’m much interested in this order I would like to know more things, especially : From what particulars you are so sure that, in the last photo I posted, the award represented is the 'ORDER' and NOT the 'CROSS' of Merit ? May I ask you why you were not so sure in the previous above points : see #28 and #29 ? Regarding the class of the Order in the last photo I posted (that formed by neck badge + breast star) you said me that it is the ‘Commander's Cross with the Star’ : I would like to know if there is another term that I can use to name both pieces as, for example, that of ‘Grand Officer’ (I hope you'll understand what I mean) I greatly appreciate your personal opinion on the following matter… Considering : - that the Italians and the Hungarians were enemies during WW1; - that the Cross(Order) of Merit was instituted in 1922; - that the 'CROSS' of Merit,as you have said above: ‘could be awarded up to the late 30s’; and with the due exceptions, can we state that almost all the awards of this Order - made to the Italians - are of the 'ORDER' and NOT of the 'CROSS' of Merit ? Awaiting to hear from you All the Best Lilo

Hello cimbineus, I'm re-opening this old post in the hope that you can give me an answer to my questions below : I have below posted a photo of an award given to an Italian High Ranking Officer : Unfortunately, I don't know the year of award. My 2 questions : 1) Can you tell me which class is represented (neck badge + breast star) here ? 2) Is it possible for you, to exactly establish if he received the 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit ? Any help is greatly appreciated. Best Regards Lilo

Hi Appy, many thanks for your contribution : very interesting ! Best Lilo

Hi Michael, Perfect ! Now, I have fully understood the matter. Thank you Lilo

Reading again all this topic, I discovered to have NOT well understood - for my ignorance on the subject - if Slatin received (or not) both classes of the Prussia, Red Cross Medal 1898-1921. According to what was stated by our member 'Ulsterman', it appears that Slatin did received both of them but from the photos successively posted by Slatin's nepew, Galitzine, a doubt arised in my mind. If I have well understood, the difference between the 2nd and the 3rd class of the Prussia, Red Cross Medal is : the 2nd Class is in silver and has the central cross in red enamel; the 3nd Class is in bronze and has the central cross plain (i.e. it has not the red enamel). Am I correct ? From the photo : http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t62/galitzine/Slatin%20Pasha/?action=view&current=RedCrossMedal2.jpg we are sure that Slatin received the 2nd Class of this medal (see the medals on the right of the photo) but what class is the medal on the left ? This last medal (that on the left) is in silver and not in bronze and it hasn’t the central cross in red enamel : then, what class is this medal ? Can someone help me in better understand ? Many thanks in advance Best Regards Lilo

Hi galitzine, Yes, it's very important because what you have said confirm, with great probability, that : 1) it was Slatin to receive the Swedish medal and not his wife; 2) Slatin received the swedish medal for his role in the Austrian Red Cross during WW1; 3) the medal in question, almost surely, was a Red Cross award given by the Swedish King/Red Cross istitution. Following, there is the photo front/back of a 'Swedish Red Cross medal of Merit' awarded in 1935 : although Slatin died in 1932, we can consider this model the same that was received by him. The next photo I posted is an enlargement of the Swedish medal I took from the photo representing the many awards of Slatin. If, in the two medals we are analizing, we compare the particular shape of the 'crown', the particular suspension and the left direction to which is oriented the head of the King, we can see that they are the same in both medals. What do you think ?

We really never know for sure till our friend galitzine will have the possibility to access his bank vault and see the back of the medal itself but considering that of all medals present in the photo I referred to before (that with all the awards) the only attributable to Slatin’s wife are only those two suspended by the 'bow ribbon', I retain more probable that the Swedish medal was awarded to him. (Slatin married Baroness Alice von Ramberg on 21 June 1914. She died in 1921 : too little time to receive a large amount of awards !) Another consideration that could corroborate my theory : As the medal have lost his ribbon I think that it is more easy – for the particular structure of a ‘male’ ribbon - to go lost in opposition to the ‘bow ribbon’ used in the medals awarded to females : this last is more difficult – at least in theory – to go lost. What do you think ?

Hi Martin, Thank you for the answer. I like to make some speculation a propos of this medal ……. If you see the photo containing Slatin’s Medals and Orders, you easily can see that he received many awards related to the Red Cross. The only reason I can think for the award of the Swedish medal to Slatin is for his presidency of the Austrian Red Cross during WW1. Then, could the Swedish medal be that of the Red Cross ? On the web I saw that a Swedish named Tisell received this medal in 1921 with others : - Swedish Red Cross Gold Medal. - Prussian Red Cross medal. - The German Red Cross Merit medal. - Austrian Red Cross Merit medal. - Austrian Red Cross Public Merit medal. http://www.ordersand...edMisc/S110.htm A similar Red Cross group to that of Slatin, isn’t it ? However, excluding the medals for ‘Life Saving’ and that for ‘Art & Science’, the other that could be possible, is that for ‘ZEAL’ but again, for me, that for the ‘Red Cross’ was the most probable. What do you think ? Last, considering that Slatin Pasha died in 1932 and that he received the Swedish medal for his work with the Austrian Red Cross during WW1, I think that the King on the Swedish medal should be - almost certainly – that of King Gustav V of Sweden (that reigned 1907-1950). Any comment is appreciated The Swedish Red Cross medal :

Hello galitzine, Many tank for all the photos you posted : they are very beautiful and they are helping so much my re-search project ! Michael, thank you for the information you posted about the Danish Dannebrog awarded to Slatin Pasha. A couple of questions : 1) I would like to ask you to correctly identify which medal is the swedish medal (the one with the special suspension) in which you, also, are interested. 2) I’m greatly interested in knowing which is the correct ribbon from which this swedish medal should be suspended. Again, thank you in advance Best Regards Lilo

Hi galitzine, Many, many thanks !!!! As requested I have sent you my email by PM I would enjoy very much to receive the photos of your grandfather but I would like that you start with the Full medal group (possibly in colour) Awaiting to hear from you Best Regards Lilo

If one won the Croix de Guerre in WW1 and in WW2, he wears both type of ribbons.

Hi All, I’m trying to search what it can be the French medal entitlement to a very important member of Italian Fascism that later became a Foreign Legion Member. His real name was Giuseppe BOTTAI but the name that he used to join the French Foreign Legion was that of Andrea BATTAGLIA. The period he spent in the FFL was from 1944 to 1948 and he fought the Germans in the 1st R.E.C. (Regiment of Cavalry) with the rank of brigadier chef. I took these information from : 1) http://it.wikipedia....Giuseppe_Bottai ‘Nel 1944 si arruola con il consenso delle autorità politiche francesi, sotto il nome di Andrea Battaglia, nella Legione Straniera, dove rimarrà fino al 1948 e nelle cui file combatterà contro i tedeschi inquadrato nel 1º Reggimento di cavalleria con il grado di brigadier chef.’ 2) http://en.wikipedia....Giuseppe_Bottai ‘In the meantime, he had entered the French Foreign Legion, where he remained up to 1948, taking part in Allied campaigns in France and Nazi Germany.’ Question : Is it possible to establish which French medals (including the clasps) and/or Orders this man received for his service (that for what I understood, was also active in figthing Germans) with the FFL ? Thank you for any help you can give me Regards Lilo

What do you think of this (I don't remember where I found this photo, may be a forum) ? The central badge is identical to that of the illustration in PERROT, A.M. Collection historique des Ordres de chevalerie civils et militaires etc... Paris 1820 (see previous page) so, after all, this was a real order and not a fanciful one.

Hi, A good word to translate the word ‘hallmark’ in Italian is ‘marchio’ or ‘punzone’. The various letter hallmarks (SJ, FML, FZ, M, A, B, F, J, H, P, R, Z …), for what is currently known to me, means the various fabricants (a part the official ‘ZECCA’ [i.e. Mint]) that produced the Cross. See : http://www.blitzkriegmilitaria-forum.com/showthread.php?t=5074 http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=19986454 http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=35710489 Best Regards Lilo

Can you post a direct link to the OMSA forum where you discussed and posted about this group ? Thank you LILO

:D Hi Jim, I recognized the pictures you posted and thought the informations on that forum could be of use to someone else. I'm happy that you could use them also !

Although in italian, this can be of some use : http://www.robertomanno.it/showimage.php?id=UeA&img=UA41&num=3&seq=1&type=2 (click on single page to enlarge) http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=33656542 http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=42427863 http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=29197500 http://forum.worldwar.it/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5895&start=0 Regards Lilo ;)

Well, all that Jim said is perfectly correct apart his last statement. When the Cross 'al Valore Militare' was used with the 1st type ribbon (i.e. the Blue and white ribbon) this was represented in a ribbon bar with the same ribbon type with the addition of the 'gladio' on it (in the mean time the ribbons of the 'Medaglia Al Valore Militare' were represented with a plain blue ribbon with the addition of a Gold star for the type in gold, of a Silver star for that in silver and nothing for the Bronze type). In 1943 the new ribbon (plain blue) was introduced for the Cross 'al Valore Militare' and in the same time, to avoid confusion, a bronze star was introduced to put on the ribbon for the 'Medaglia Al Valore Militare in bronze'. This was made to differentiate the ribbon of the Cross 'al Valore Militare' (plain blue ribbon without device) from that of the 'Medaglia Al Valore Militare in bronze' (plain blue ribbon with a bronze star ) The use of the 'Coroncine' (crown) during the reign or of the 'stars' during the Repubblic, detote the numbers of the awards of the Cross Al Merito di Guerra. The use of the 'Coroncine' or the 'Stars' in gold, in silver or in bronze (and their combination) on the ribbon, represent the effective number of awards of the Cross 'Al Merito di Guerra (only !) that a person received. An example - if a person received, after may 1943, two 'Medaglia Al Valore Militare in bronze' and two Cross 'al Valore Militare' we will find on his ribbon bar : two plain blue ribbons + 2 bronze stars (one on each of the ribbons) to represent the two 'Medaglia Al Valore Militare in bronze' + two plain blue ribbons to represent the two Crosess 'al Valore Militare'. As you can see in this ribbon bar, the number of awards is represented by the wear of as many ribbons as many decorations the person received.

It should be plain blue because the cross is an 'Al Valore Militare' and not the 'Al Merito di Guerra'. This ribbon was introduced in may 1943. The 'VE III' chypher was obliteraded with a X denoting a re-utilization of a royal period cross during the Repubblic.

Hi galitzine, Are you OK ? Just the list is Wounderful ! Regards Lilo

Hi galitzine, WoW !!!!!!!! Yes, surely I'm VERY VERY interested in obtaining the complete and detailed list of what your grandfather received (all the medals/Orders) . If you could also supply some photo of the medals themselves it would be my ecstasy, so feel free to post them on this forum. However, I would be very interested in obtaining some high resolution photo for my 'Sudan' database (in this case let me know if you need my email). Awaiting to hear from you as soon as you can Best Regards Lilo

Hi Nicholas, Thank you very much for your help ! Best regards Lilo