Richard LaTondre

Hello and thank you for your replay

@Richard: Unfortunately I wasn't the lucky one, my limit was 2000$ and I was way outbid with almost 5000$. (Sorry for my, sometimes, confusing Englisch) So you think 5000$ or 2000$ is a good price for this medal?

@Hugh: It's interesting how fast the prices raised over the last five years, I followed a lot of auctions over the last 2 years and 1100$ for DD (Neck badge and star) is, in my opinion, a extrem low price.

Any guess why the prices for pre communist chinese medals ar so high now compared to a few years ago?

and here is the reverse of the medal from ebay, unfortunately there was no picture of the case…

many thanks

a l e x

Alex -

Thanks for the picture of the back. That was a very good looking set. I believe that the rise in prices of pre-communist medals may have been acerbated by the Cultural Revolution when the Red Guard zealots destroyed much of China's historical treasures. If this was the case, it then appears that there may be more of these treasures outside of the Chinese mainland than can be found in country. That being the case, who can or cannot say that US 5,000 is a good or a bad price. At this point the primary factor in the pricing of these medals is availability. Thanks again for sharing your information and bringing it to this forum. It is the only way that we may be able to answer the questions that arise.

Ruchard

Hello

I thought this is worth posing here, this Double Dragon went away for about 4800$ last Saturday. I did also bid for it but my personal limit was 2000$ so no chance for me there.

Do you think that almost 5000$ is a good price or much to high for this medal? (I came with the original case)

greetings

a l e x

I think you were lucky Alex. I doubt that this would be the average price for this order. Do you happen to have any pix of the back?

Richard

Order of Brilliant Jade

about 1933

classes 9

On image 3 class

Thank you Pang! I am familiar with the Order of the Brilliant Jade 采玉勳章 which replaced the Order of the Golden Grain on 2 December 1933. This award is normally given to heads of State.

Richard

very good collection. with box

I am not at all familiar with this Order. Could you please give us a little more information such as; What period was it established? By who's authority? Who was it given to? How many classes within this order?

Thank You very much

Richard

The mummed cases appear to be lacquered wood, what do you think?? I've never actually had the opportunity to handle one! Here are two different pieces:

I didn't actually read the text of that auction - did the seller indicate case material? I guess the easiest way to find out would be to send a question! I'm curious, I'll do that later if I remember to do so.

Very interesting. If those cases with the Mums are in fact wood, we may be looking at an older issue that has recently surfaced. Now if we could only see the reverse of the medal and if it has a hallmark to the left of the stele . . . . . . . .

Thanks,

Dick

Yes, I've seen that one. It appears to have an unwatered ribbon, best I can tell from the pics. - I've noted in the few I've seen - the unwatered ribbons seem to come in the black cases with the mum on it. All of the others I've seen are watered ribbons and in mumless cases, either black plastic or wood. Granted, this is only from a handful of observations!

Thanks! Do you recall if the cases with the Mum were plastic or wood? This would be fairly important.

Here is an unusual set on eBay

Given that the piece has noticeable enamel damage and I know from personaal experience that the order damages quite easily is it possible that the piece is original but the beads are later replacements?

Paul

As I keep saying: You need to examine the back. I agree with JCWater except the title of the medal in Chinese refers to the "rank" as well as "merit"

Richard

I believe that it is the Republic Order of Merit, Fourth Class, Second or Third Order. The rays represent the colors of th State of Manchukuo.

The Four characters on the case read: (in my humble opinion) "Order of Merit 4th Class". I have more pictures in my file whick I need to locate.

Richard

The Order of Merit (order of the Merit and Rank) was an award that was given to a recipient in accodance with his rank or status within the Manchu Imperial Court. It was a short-lived order and little is known concerning the decoration itself. It was founded in 1912 by President Yuan Shikai and this 'insignia' was worn and ranked above all others in precedence. I am planning the publication of a new book on Chinese Medals within the next several months and it will be described in greater detail with more photographs of this rare medal. As promised, I am sending a photo of one of the medals contained in the Harry A. Mohler Collection, at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University.

do not konw what name of this by english. who can help me?

I believe that it is the Republic Order of Merit, Fourth Class, Second or Third Order. The rays represent the colors of th State of Manchukuo.

The Four characters on the case read: (in my humble opinion) "Order of Merit 4th Class". I have more pictures in my file whick I need to locate.

Richard

That medal does not appear to be the same as any of the orders of the most precious brilliant golden grain awards that I have ever seen. Could you please tell us where it originated?

Rick. Thanks very much for this..it looks as tho' we are off to a good start ! I wonder if anyone "out there" has any pics they can show me ? I do know there were at least four grades, viz : The Red Button, Green Button, Blue Button, and Crystal Button. This last may also have been known as the White Button ??

Regards Jeff

PS What does Werlich actually say ?

Photographs of these awards can be found at the Orders and Medals Society of America Website at:

http://www.omsa.org/modules/Jig/index.php

Dick LaTondre

Hey bud, I believe I found another badge just like yours on this sash of "The Ancient Order of Foresters".

A good look of the crest.

Thats it exactly! Now we know there's more than one!

"Moore Alias Ensor" as my old New England records would have put it.

That is another excellent clue, since adoption/fostering back then was usually connected to KIN-- life was hard enough struggling with one's own children without taking in (and think very small villages/towns) "strangers."

Pursued, I think you will find a link between those two families and Small Albert would have been a cousin by blood to the children of the house he grew up in, possibly on the maternal line since women were more softhearted. My advice is: look for Lost Moores on the side of that Mrs. Ensor.

Thanks for the great tip!

You are both lucky and unlucky. Ensor is a very unusual name (occasionally one like this crops up which defies explanation as an ENGLISH word).

I've been over to the Mormons online and found in the 1881 British Census an

Alfred "age 30" carpenter, living in Kevesley Heath, parish of Coventry St. Michael in Warwick. Born there. Wife Emily age 28 born Foleshill, Warwick, dressmaker, and at that time 1 child, a moppet Beatrice age 1 born in Kevesley.

Ring any family bells?

I don't turn anything up on him after that. Someone of that generation falls into the Pre-Social Security void.

The LDS records are riddled with errors in what was provided by individuals, but government records are usually more reliable. Of course, answers given to Census takers are not necessarily accurate either. My Irish great-grandfather never got his children's ages right and he grew randomly younger over the years.

Alfred Ensor seems to have been a name that was used by several branches of people who must have been cousins over there, suggesting a common grandfather.

If you want to go into Genealogy here, by all means post away with names and dates and places that you DO have.

My own have been slinking this side of the Hudson for pushing 400 years in some cases (we only travel at government expense, in uniforms ) but from decades of sifting out glitter from dross in the online family tree stuff, always happy if I can help somebody else with roots.

You've got a good start with an odd name and a rather unusual origin ffor American emigrants... I often find that it is possible to get around clogs in a male line by following back the female ones.

Thank you for all of the information and tips about proceeding in this area. The only problem is that the English records indicate that he was adopted by the Ensor family while he was a young lad and his name may have been Moore. I want to thank all of you for being so gracious in sharing your knowlege of peerage. I know nothing about the subject which must be painfully obvious to some of you. I am proud to be a member of such a distinguished group of researchers. Thanks again.

Semper Fi to all,

Dick

It looks like it could be a Badge awarded by "The Ancient Order of Foresters", a friendly society formed in 1790

In 1845 the order had 1456 "Courts" (Lodges) with 65,909 Memebrs

1898 it had 4899 courts and 731,442 Members

By the late 19th Century Forsetry had spread over the world, particularly to the British Colonies but also to the USA.

I cannot post a photo of the emblems but a brief description is :

A shield divided by a cross and has an escutcheon in the centre with a bugle horn and bows and arrows. In the top left quarter of the shiled is a pair of clasped hands, in the top right quarter three running stags, in the lower left quarter is a chevron, a lamb and flag above the chevron and a bugle horn below. In the lower left quarter is a quiver over a bow arrow and bugle horn. Above the shiled is a stag's head issuing out of a coronet. Flanking it are the figures of two forester (both male before 1892), one male on female thereafter.

Ralph

Hi Ralph,

I believed that you nailed it! Do you think he could have gotten this sash in Minnesota? He was a lumberjack. Thanks for your expertise.

Dick

Dick - there is no LaTondre listed in Fairburn's Crests of the Families of Great Britain and Ireland. However, it was common for families to have different branches. The key will probably be to identify from the crest , which is above the armorials. I can't make it out properly - perhaps you can do a close-up - however, it appears to be a stags head sitting on a coronet. What is in it's mouth ? There is a crest for the Foster family - the stag has an arrow in it's mouth ? Do you know anything about the history of the family - many French names came to Britain when the Protestants fled from Louis 15th. in the 17th C.. My Mother's maiden name was Bozier and they came at that time.I still think Rick is the best person - IM him. Anyway, let's have a close-up and I'll see what turns-up.

My Great Grandfather's name was Alfred (Moore) Ensor and I believe that he was born in Warwickshire and his ancestors came from Rdensor ehich perhaps was the origin of the name Ensor. There is nothing in the stags mouth, and I appologize for the poor quality of the image. I will try to make a better one. Thanks for your help.

Dick

Richard - do you by any chance, know if there is a family latin motto. Sometimes it is easier to look this up. I will look in Fairburn's Crests for you, to see if I can find any trace. Probably Rick will be the best bet.

........I wish that I did. I was a little hesitant about posting this item as it probably is not an item of Military Interest, but things appeared to be a little slow, and who knows . . . . he may have been a Colonel in the British Army!

Thanks for your help,

Dick LaTondre

I would appreciate any help on the identification of the seal attached to a sash belonging to my Great Grandfather.

He was Alfred (Moore) Ensor born in Rugby England about 1847 according to the 1851 England Census. He came to America around 1880. Thank you for your time.

Richard LaTondre

Neither badge has the registration number. Both are just marked DRAGE PARIS which was used 1956 -1988 if my memory serves me correctly.

Garth

Garth:

Are you sure that they are marked DRAGE PARIS as opposed to DRAGO PARIS?

Dick

This is made with a macro lens, without direct sunlight…

still the medal looks real to me but I'm very curious what the experts think

a l e x

Alex,

Your medal looks genuine to me as well. Attached is another 6cl of mine that has the same condition. The front has quite a bit of patina or 'toning'. The back is bright silver (the same as yours). I have several more 6cl in my collection that look the same. To remove the patina, which I feel adds interest as well as beauty to the medal, I use a mild solution of Tarn-X, a commercial jewelers product that is used on silver and fine gold. As Paul said, protect the ribbon.

Dick

Believe it or not this is a seventh class with excessive patina.

I have some seventh class kites that are mint but over the years developed a 'gold' patina over the sword handles.

Hello

Here are my Kites 7th and 6th class. so the first question is did I date them correst? I used Pauls Topic about dating the kites and I think the 7th class is WWII because of the Showa wing shape of the kite and the silver kanji on the case. the 6th class I belive to be a Meiji piece because it has one roundal more than the other one and there are also old-knaji characters on the case. so does this mean that my 6th class was manufactured between 1890 and 1911?

There is also one other question, I read in Mr. Petersons Book that the 6th class medal is Golden expect the two sword hilts are silver but mine is completely golden including the sword hilts. How can that be?

thank you

a l e x

I have some seventh class kites that are mint but over the years developed a 'gold' patina.

I received this item yesterday from Argentina. It is the Royal Order of Cambodia instituted in 1894, This one was issued by the Emperor of Cambodia. Weight with ribbon 34.7 grs

Size (w/o ribbon) 75 x 52 mm. Sorry, No pictures as I am informed the file is 'too big'