paul wood

Most interesting, Sudanese? I am sure Owain will tell me I am barking up the wrong tree.

Paul

It is probably one of the many souvenir pieces connected to the return of Napoleon's remains to France in 1840. He became very much flavour of the month in France, especially as the Orleanist monarchy was so drab and middle class, new generations, especially, who had not seen the down side to Napoleon's wars were captivated by him and the whole Bonapartist revival was eventually to lead to the establishment of the Second Empire which virtually deified Napoleon. It could therefore be around 1840 or conceivably 1850s-60s during the reign of his nephew Napoleon III.

Paul

Gentlemen.....

Cut and Posted to a few other sites.....

Mike

Many thanks Mike. I normally am not so bothered about many thefts reported as most are untracable but my gut feeling is that something as unusual will ring alarm bells if such material turns up in large quantities.

I am afraid I have problems coming to terms with the technologies of late 19th century let alone with late 20th century/21st century.

Paul

Paul - thankyou for posting this distressing loss - with so many involved it is a serious theft.

May I suggest that in addition to here you add the post to the Stolen section on the For Sale section.

Not everyone reads the British Forums. Mervyn

Thanks Mervyn,

How can I do this without rewriting I seem to have trouble copying and pasting.

Lazy as ever,

Paul

Mervyn not really,

Anne's roles are purely honourary. HMQ actually served with the ATS in WWII and trained as a mechanic. Fergie's two daughters are members of the silly hat wearing corps but I don't think that counts as military service, Zara Philips while a brilliant horsewoman has no military connections and Sarah Armstrong Jones (or Sarah Chatto) (Princess Margaret's daughter) folowed the arts as a career so I am completely stumped. Even Princess Alexandra's daughter had no military connections. I would be interested to know. Mind you a new a few ex-marines who would nominate Prince Edward as according to them he was a bit of girl during his brief sojourn with them.

Paul

Yes the details were sent to me yesterday in an E-mail I felt that given the nature of theft it was something worth mentioning on GMIC.

Paul

Dear all possibly the sort of thing that might find its way on E-Bay

At approximately 4.45pm on Thursday 9 August a collection of over 600 WWI peace commemorative medal and badges were stolen form the Malmesbury area in Wiltshire. The items were in gold, silver, bronze, aluminium and paper. All items were associated with the peace celebrations of 1919 in Britiain, the Commonwealth and allied countires and also included Masonic commemoratives.

Any information phone DC Garry Epps (Wiltshire Police) (0044(0)1225 794739 (Crime number 54120070860)

All the best,

Paul

Yes not a thing of great beauty in comparison to the original, post 9 is such a big lad the star looks like a miniature on breast, he could certainly have worn the full set down to St Stanislaus without looking overloaded.

Paul

By the way the cases must be pretty huge are you able to give the dimensions.

Paul

Wow Nick that is something else have never encountered such a case before (hope I see one in the flesh eventually).

Paul

Same here...

Between AK and IK quite insignificant differences ...

But even two Keibels with AK have small differences

As for differences between WK and KK - couldn`t really comment since I didn`t saw WK Andrew`s...

Yes, this was one amazing collection!

Personally I prefer Pannasch Nevsky over St. Adrew (simply amazing quality!).

As for miniature coller - I think it will be very interesing to discuss these miniature collers (in a separate thread)

Regards,

Nick

Nick, old age and poor memory are taking over. I have seen a KK Andrew about 20 years ago (I noted it in my copy of Tammann) it was in the collection of the Grand Dukes of Baden and was eventually sold, with all the other Russian Orders at Hermann Historica, 20 October 2000. There was a cased sash badge (KK) lot 8 which was issued with a cased Pannasch collar dated 1835 (lot 9). ther was also a cased KK Nevsky dated 1839, White Eagle and Anne (lots 13, 14 and 15), the last three all with original cloth stars and all including the Andrew of Pannash style manufacture. Also included was a cased Wilhelm Keibel collar, badge and star dated 1857 (lot 21). Also a sash badge with breast star (WK) the badge dated 1861 (lot 22 and 23) a sash badge 1865 to 70 With the N (reversed) (don't know how to do Russian script on this site) O (lot 27), a Nicholls and Plinke breast star (lot 28) and A cased AK collar, badge and star set. The photography in the catalogue is extremely good and well catalogued (Gustav Tammann was the cataloguer) might be worth contacting www.hermann-historica.com to see if they have any spare catalogues.

Paul

Sure! It's a fiddled medal. Usually there are no suspenders on the 1860 NRA medals.

http://www.historyli.../number2213.asp

Hmmm ...but only the mark of King George 3rd have this prominent plait of hair to the left.

http://www.925-1000....tish_marks.htm

It is quite possible that he had served in the regular forces (although not with the 36th Foot (Herefordshire regiment) who had seen no active service since the Peninsular War), probably in the Crimea, subsequent to discharge, as many did, joined his local volunteer force, and presumably attached a similar suspension so he could wear it with his official award. The regulations for wearing medals were much more haphazard than later as can be seen from many photos of soldiers from this period. As for the hallmark on the medal, presumably NRA had some old stock lying around which nobody apart from a silver specialist was going to give a damn about receiving. Medal collectors should always remember that medals were adapted for the recipient not for the benefit of collectors.

Paul

Hmmm...

Around 1050 were issued ...

Many were awarded to foreigners.

So they are out there somewhere ... At least some of them

But I don't think that anyone will try to get one out of Russia for sale ...

The real market (with astronomical prices!) for Imperal Russia awards is modern Russia.

If in 1990s Russia was net exporter of it's own decoration, than 00s it became net importer

I notice for the Keibel version you chose an Albert Keibel piece, I noted that poor St Andrew looked like he had been crucified on a particularly bright day as he has chronic sunburn. As you are well aware the Keibel family produced official insignia for about seventy-five years. 1) KK, Kammerer and Wilhelm Keibel (1836-41) (have not seen any KK insignia of the Order of St Andrew). 2) Wilhelm Keibel (1841-62) who also in around 1850 was involved in the adoption of the 17 link from the 23 link collar and around introduced the metal star rather than the cloth star for the insignia set (have seen a collar set dated 1861) 3) Julius Keibel (1862-82) (turn up occaisionally), Albert Keibel (1882-1910) (along with Eduard the most common). What I am wondering is

Is the AK badge a typical Keibel production or is there noticable production differences between AK and IK WK and KK. I personally like the ealrk Keibel pieces they are more subtle than Eduard. Although none are patch on Pannasch, there are images of a Pannasch badge and a Kammerer miniature coller in the Earl of Durham sale, Morton and Eden 10 June 2010. go to wwwmortonandeden.com and follow links to past auctions.

All the best,

Paul

By the way, much more "civilized" and "Western" Scanderbeg's icone (from Italian medieval painting) has been chosen for the current version of the Albanian order

Interestingly there is a fine contemporary (15th century) Italian renaissance medal of Skandebeg which has a very similar portrait to the Kossovan piece, possibly it was modelled from that.

All the best,

Paul

Hi all,

I picked up this small badge (around 1,5 cm high) and I can't figure what country it is and where it was used. Any idea would be great.

Thanks,

Noor

Paul

Thank you all for this wonderful post.

My cross has been carefully scrutinised and no sign of a mark of any kind can be seen on any of the arms. It certainly looks very much like the 4th class badge last shown by JapanX; Congratulationss for the fine series of crosses shown !

I am very grateful.

Veteran

I agree this has been a most useful and enlightening post for me and I am now able to note the stylistic differences between the two official suppliers. Question for Nick, apart from Eduard and Osipov are the any other known Russian makers of bronze insigina?

All the best,

Paul

I have only the pic of the order "Hero i Kosovёs" (from Wikipedia)

Definitely lifted from the Albanian Order of Skanderbeg (they don't make beards like that these days)

Paul

A regulation approved by Kosovo's president

Rregullore_per_Dekorata-_Final_07_maj_2012_Anglisht.pdf

http://www.president....net/?page=2,18

Any pictures of these orders and decorations available nothing appears to come through on the link?

Paul

Nice but lacks the pure beauty of the Pannasch collars.

Paul

Veteran piece could be made by Osipov (at least loop and reverse tablet are closer to Osipov style) ...

Although with these photos I can`t speak with confidence.

Regards,

Nick

Nick thanks for that, I have always assumed (mistakenly as it appears) all pre-revolutionary and provisional government pieces were marked, at least with the K if not the maker's mark.

Paul

Now let`s turn our attention to Osipov pieces.

4th class without swords.

Marked

Nick, If it is unmarked how do you know it's Eduard? On stylistic grounds?

Thanks,

Paul

Thank you all for your kind attention to this post.

Here is as large a scan as I can manage to produce. The enamel has a "see-through" quality, showing the metal background. This background looks very much like the older crosses made by the Russian jewellers which French makers have not usually tried to produce..

Hope this helps.

Best regards

Veteran

My suspicion is that this may be a 'White' Civil War period award, the lack of any marks pretty well debars it being a Czarist or Provisional Government, sorry I can't be more precise. Nick may have further ideas.

All the best,

Paul

Thank you Paul for this quick and considered information.

I have had this for decades now and strangely a very similar cross with swords was recently sold on eBay. This is why this one came back to my mind.

It does not look truly post-WW1-french, which are usually silver or silver gilt with proper hallmarks. Rather like this Cross of Saint-Georges, with flat enamels not the bulbeous look of the Saint Wladimir cross shown :

But this could nevertheless be the case.

Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated. Thanks again.

Paul

No marks again, does not look like a later piece, possibly emigre or civil war and as you are well aware there was a large emigre community in Paris so this could explain it

P.S. "He makes 2 and 2 make 5" .... Synergy?!

Nick, no offence meant and none taken I hope. You are right about the Eduard pieces, I have encountered some without the K.

Paul

Thank you Cludius for your reply.

I would agree with Claudius. A 1940 DFC is much sought, more so than any other year after as many of these were awarded for the Battle of Britain. The big but is whether it is genuine (many fakes lurk out there) and without clear photographs this is impossible to ascertain.

Paul