paul wood

Just got this one. I checked others flat reverse type of Herdersman badge. Just got question: why this one's reverse is sooooo flater than others, and why its number craving method is different with others?

Thanks,

Dan

Dan,

Image please.

Paul

I have conclusively discovered that there were NO inter-war awards of the Royal Victorian Order to Germans. However let us look at the picture the subject is certainly not in his first flush of youth and could quite likely be in his 50's. The pictue looks as though it is pre-WWII. Also I notice that after his EK he is wearing the Order of Hohenzollern (possibly the Princeley Order). Now look in the pre-war awards there is one which sticks out. Prince of Wales visit to Sigmaringen on the marriage of King Manoel of Portugal, September 1913, where and MVO 4th class was awarded to Captain Fritz Wehr, Baron von Schonau, 8th Gendarmerie Brigade. He would have been late twenties -early thirties at the time which would fit in with the time scale of the photo.

All the best,

Paul

Makedon,

No offence meant, perhaps I should have said as likely as England winning the European Championships (even less likely than my previous allusion).

Paul

Marcus this is great news and from the illustrations it looks like he does a really good job.

Paul

I suspect there will be several bigwigs both governmental and MOD who have never seen a shot fired in anger, would be nice if one of them gave up their place for him but hey there's more chance of Greece paying off their debts.

Paul

I wil try and post again. As usual I was being dyslexic. What I meant to say was that the postcard almost certainly dated from the 1880s or 90s when the Karoly studio was at its most prolific. Hope the post works this time.

Paul

Divald Karoly (1830-97) ran the major photographic studio in Budapest. I would date this photo to 1800s-1890s

Hope this is of help.

Paul

3rd Attempt at trying to reply to this.

In my opinion this is a somewhat later privately made piece quite possibly made to replace a lost original.

Paul

...and the reverse,

Owain

Owain, thanks for this I was aware of the other three which you showed previously but not this, an interesting find.

Paul

Odulf - your interest is appreciated - however, I don't agree with all you say.

I will comment as follows -

Google shows that a Bosun's Whistle was called by this name - also, it was known as a call. Hugh tells

me that in the US Navy it is known as a pipe. I have always known it as a whistle and there are many silver

versions. Earlier generations bought many items for their own distinction.

The Crown with RN may well be cut from a blazer badge - I wil take your recognition - however, my intro.

cleary showed that he was seconded from the Sth. African Navy and received his MID as an anti-aircraft gunner.

The earier detail aso identified the different flotillas he served with during the Burma Campaign - they, and the Motor

Torpedo Boats were important for in-shore work. I liked your translation of his name - I did say at the beginning

that he was from SA - so, probably an Afrikaaner of Dutch descent.

You certainly haven't ''killed my enthusiasm'' - I woudn't take the time to post 17 pages if I didn't think it an

interesting subject. However, I am surprised that you overlooked all of his pieces - incl. the Russian Awards ?

Thanks for replying. Mervyn

Nice group, especially with all the documentation and nice to have a named medal. A good find and should keep you busy researching for a fair while. Please post any more info that you dredge (as its Naval) up.

All the best,

Paul

Hi, picture is not mine but I will ask my colleague who is having the original one to send me closer image of the obverse part with the inscription. For now thank you for help.

This item has already been posted on the site see http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54517-unknown-order/unread/

Paul

Paul / Xtender,

I am assuming that unlike the British system of marking silver and gold the Austrian system does not have a date mark?

I attach images of the medal I have which is clearly related to / part of this award. No makers mark though.

Kind regards,

Owain

Austrian silver marks were not dated. It is the style of marks for 1866-1922. Lovely Merit medal.

Paul

Dear Xtender,

A similar piece, if not this one, was offered for sale in recent years by Kuenker. The Arabic reads as "Al Kawkab Al Ahmer Al Arabi" which could translate as "The Arab Red Star". I am of the belief, from a little research and some supposition, the arms are that of the Khedive of Egypt and I believe that the order and a medal was instituted by Khedive Abbas Hilmi, possibly after his deposition by the British in 1912, whereupon he went into exile in Constantinople. As the breast star was manufactured by Rothe in Vienna I suspect that the Constantinople post-1912 theory has some substance, as the Ottomans were in league with the central powers. Regrettably I have no documentary evidence to support my theory.

Kind regards,

Owain

Owain,

I would tend to agree with you, it's clearly not a Rothe collector's piece as it was produced prior to 1922. I suspect these were awarded by Hilmi to Germans and Turks hoping they would help him re-establish his position. Certainly the quality is good.

All the best,

Paul

This is normal wear-and-tear on Legion of honor badges, since they were permanently worn when they belonged to a serving officer Their enamel has always been delicate and most makers would currently re-enamel damaged badges in the 1800s.

Perfectly complete badges are nicer to look at, but they were possibly re-enamelled or may have been owned by civilian recipents who wore them only very occasionnally.

Yours a straightforward looking badge.

Veteran

Frank, I would totally agree for a July Monarchy Knight's badge this is, if anything, in above average condition, I have seen examples in considerably worse state. Well done in getting it

All the best,

Paul

It's the

Hi everyone i am trying to identify this medal i think its from Belgium

Its the Municipility of Herzele's medal for the 50th anniversary of Liberation in 1994.

Paul

Can anyone lend their eyes to see if this looks right?

Last photo, this shows the thickness of the Silver 1st Class (thin) versus a Silver 2nd Class I also have. (thicker).

Is this how they are supposed to be?

Can't see anything obviously wrong with it.

Paul

Hi,

A friend ofer me this medal with a R.A.O.C. tab, but I'm not sure if the name at medal rim is from a ex-R.A.O.C. member. Please, is it possible from this images to confirm it? Is it possible to know too if this medal was issued at WW2 periode?

Regards,

Ricardo

All one can say is that it was issued between 1937-48 so there is a fair chance it is WWII issue.

Paul

Thanks, Pike,

We'll give it a shot. I'm increasingly dubious.

Hugh

I have searched the Gazette using various options form 1936-39 and also published sources which list all MIDs from 1/1/39. Not a trace of him.

Paul

the surface is silver for shure because of teh silver test , but i want to know what is under the surface , if it is solid silver or not , i think i only can compare the weight of a original and my example .

i want to be 100 procent sure if i sell it , i do not want to ripp somebody off .t

thanks , bjorn .

Looking at it everything looks 100% fine, yes it is pure sterling silver, alas I don't have a loose one to hand to weigh. As to the ribbon, it is the original one that it was issued with. If you are selling it keep it with it then the new owner will have the option to re-ribbon it if he so desires.

All the best

Paul

Quite so, Paul. The card is rather thin and I would date it around 1860 also.

Thanks for identifying the stars.

Could it be Czar Alexander II?

Definitely not, his face was far chubbier in his youth, the Johanniter order would suggest a German (many Germans served in the Russian Army, in fact a member of the Baden family served with the Russian Army and was awarded the Order of St. George 4th Class for the Caucasus Campaign).

Paul

Indeed, the Maria Theresia Order; the first is the Russian Order of St.George 4th Class.

The neck badge is the Sovereign Order of St. John (Johanniter Orden), Prussian Branch.

On the epaulettes the monogram "H"

Top star is definitely St. Stanislaus, bottom either Anne or Vladimir, picture looks circa 1860

Paul

It relates to the Royal Hellenic Navy somehow, but does not appear in any of my sources. What is it?

Its the Greek Royal Naval Award, Alpha (or First Class), that's what it says on the medal but I am sure our Hellenic friends can enlarge.

Paul

Thankyou for going to all of this trouble, Paul. Unless thay had been gold I wasn't worried about value -

it was the mystery of their origin. When Bob is next in S.A. ( you probably know him ?) I shall have great

pleasure in telling him their true history. Actually, either story makes them unusual. Many thanks. Mervyn

Mervyn,

The man formally of Englands Lane Hampstead and latterly at Leighton-Buzzard, who's company name was of a piscean nature. Give old "honest" Bob my best when you see him, he will remember me from my Sotheby's days.

Paul

YOU WILL SEE THAT HE WAS IN THE ARMY PAY CORPS.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2012/post-6209-0-35552600-1332685176.jpgCLICK TO ENLARGE

Have you got his service papers? was he APC for the duration of WWII.

Paul

Hi,

When I discussed my book project with you in Amsterdam, the month was I believe December 2010 or January 2011, long time ago, I was in the early stages of writing. It was just before you finished your article titled "De Keizerlijke Osmaanse oorlogsdecorative van 1915" in the Dutch magazine "Wereld in Oorlog" (number 9 in the sources section of my book) which was really a big contribution to the TWM community, you kindly encouraged me to continue on writing.

The problem what you are asking now is several but the main two are: 1. I don't know old Arabic script Turkish, so I need somebody to translate them for me (Which I used this option in this book) 2. After the end of the war, it was hard to follow the track of the medals awarded especially by the German commanders after the armistice 30 October 1918 as mentioned in the book (page 35). Still, I will try to find out when I go to Istanbul Ottoman Archives.

For the other medals there are 2 perfect well written books by Edhem Eldem (the History of Ottoman Order and Medals) and Metin Erüreten (Ottoman Medals and Orders - History and Documents).

Thanks for your kind remarks

Regards

Demir

Just received and read (and re-read) Demir's book a superbly put together book that must have involved a gargantuan amount of research and dispels many "urban myths" related to the medal. It is nice to see so much meticulous detail, were all medal research books as good as this. I think Demir ought to get a special GMIC award and I hope he is working on other projects relating to Turkish awards. If you haven't got one get it.

All the best,

Paul