paul wood

Hello all,

I picked this SWB up the other day at about half the going rate. I believe it to be a silver dipped original but don't have anything to compare it with, nor do I have my Researchers & Collectors Guide to the Great War.

It would be great if anyone can back up my opinion or even comment as to why it isn't good.

Thanks

Tony

Tony the badge itself looks OK but I think the pin is areplacement as they are usually silver not goldy colour.

Paul

Dorling 1960 (did I just date myself?) reproduces the full C.W.6154 - 7/7/1920 on naval clasps. It seems to have been pulled after his death and the appropriation of his book and his name (rather like what happened with Gordon's work?).

He does not list the army clasps. Where did I see that? OMRS journal? Or actually in the PRO? Must look. I have forgetting things.

All these BWM clasps are -- and this should be made clear -- unofficial tailors' inventions for miniature medals (which were, in their own right, tailors' concoctions).

Unlike most continental awards, we need to remember that British awards (as broadly defined) were officially issued things (not just a piece of paper) in full-size. While this made life more difficult for British jewlers and military tailors (as opposed to their cousins in France, Germans, etc. who made everything), there were ample opportunities for inventiveness and for profit in miniature medals/clasps.

Ed, I didn't know you were reading Dorling as a small boy.

Paul

Sorry, I haven't checked, but does the new BB&M show all clasps or just the naval clasps? As I recall, only Dorling detailed the army clasps.

I have the 1983 edition of Dorling and unless I'm not looking in the right place I can find no listing of any of the clasps army or navy. BB&M show all the Naval clasps as they were the only ones that were actually authorised.

Paul

Thank you both for your replies ! Considerably more bars than I had in mind

Paul : if you have the present edition of "British Battles & Medals", would it be possible to scan the list of bars ?

Cheers,

Hendrik

PM me with you E-mail address and get it done in the next week or so.

Paul

According to Major Gordon (British Battles & Medals) & Howard Williamson ((The Collectors & Researchers Guide To The Great War), about 68 Bars were suggested for RN & 79 for army, the idea being dropped in 1923.

Bars turn up on some miniatures to the RN as the Bars were actually approved but not issued - miniatures being private purchase rather than issue items.

I've seen a list of, I think, the RN Bars in a magazine article years ago.........

Just remembered, I think the Imperial War Museum have examples of full size BWMs with Bars - I have a vague recollection of seeing a BWM with an example of every Bar to the RN on it's ribbon, about 30 - 40 years ago.

They are all listed in the present edition of British Battles and Medals, available from Spink

I will confess to sitting through many episodes of this show with one eye/ear open.... today I saw an episode that actually made me sit up and take notice...

One of the "teams" picked up a set of 4 medals to one man.

WW1 Service Medal

King's South Africa Medal, 2 Bars

Meritorious Service Medal

Long Service & Good Conduct Medal

Three of them had the original ribbons, clearly missing the Victory Medal & (??) another.

Whilst they bickered about buying it I sat there yelling BUY IT at the screen....

They paid 175- Quid, at auction it only brought 180-Quid. Seemed incredibly cheap to me based on what very little knowledge I have of British ODM....

Not expensive but as well as the Victory Medal and possibly 14-15 star, it was also missing the Queen's South Africa Nedal as the King's South Africa was only issued with the QSA. Lot of peole dont like broken groups but if the other medals had been their it would have made at least double and possibly more.

Paul

Hello everyone

Would anyone have an idea of what this (incomplete) medal might be. I am sorry the reverse seems to lack part of its center.

It is quite large (42mm-22grs) and heavy in what seems to be enameled glit metal (possibly silver, no hallmark found). The enamel finish is very good.

Information will be gratefully received.

Greetings

Veteran

It is the Commemorative medal for the Inauguration of President Hsu Shih-Chang, October 1918, unfortunately his portrait has gone AWOL (See ANS 3, lot 130) and is perfectly genuine.

Paul

It is a commemorative medal, not an award medal and would have been purchased by collectors at the time, it is by Thomas Wyon, it comes in silver, bronze and white metal, it is not uncommon in white metal or bronze but is scarce in silver and is probably worth about ?150.

Paul

One more, but I don't want to open a second thread at the zinky guy's forums, as I know here are people that can answer the same question - what is the last ribbon for? It's a pure WW II bar, so the last award, with a crown device, should be something from an allied monarchy. But what? Bulgaria used the blue-silver ribbon for war decorations, I don't know a Romanian award with this ribbon...

To me the last riband looks like the Order of the Wuerttemberg Crown military division

Paul

Hello,

Paul touched an important point about Austrian Orders and Decorations: Rothe copies, "updated" from some "creative" dealer.

It would be extremely interesting to see the faked hallmarks struck on that MMThO star.

Best wishes,

Enzo

Enzo,

When I can get the scanner free, hopefully later today or tomorrow I will oblige.

Paul

Hello,

yes, austrian marks are sometimes a difficult topic...

The diamond-shaped mark "FR" for Rothe was never found on copies as well as the "FR" in a rectangle (unless they could have been faked... but that's another story.

The post-1918 hallmark of Rothe is "CFR" in a rectangle

The marks "C.F. ROTHE"; "WIEN" we see on breast stars' pins were used earlier and later than 1918, although the difference between an old piece and a copy is evident.

Best wishes,

Be extremely careful with Austrian pieces. In the 1970's a German dealer who we all know and despise (no names given) got batches of Rothe reissues and stamped them up with multiple false Austrian hallmarks. They still bedevil many, especially American, collections formed at around that period or slightly later. I have a breast star of the Order of M. Theresia which contains these marks in my July auction.

All the best,

Paul

Enzo

Very nice

Thank you for sharing

Lorenzo

What a nice set, Spink are swine not letting you have a piece of riband. Hope someone can help you.

Paul

Hi Chet

2 AM is indeed airman 2nd class and you probably won't find his MIC unless he did time in the army first. RAF cards are held at Hendon. I can have a look through a book and give you an idea of when he enlisted if you want

Cheers

Perce

Chet he is entitled to an RAF Meritorious Service Medal; L Gazette 1/1/19 p.100, general citation, he originated from Greenock in Scotland. Being only AM2 he is probably not entitled to a 14 or 14/15 tar, unless he served previously as a Private in a line regt or corps.

Not a bad singleton,

PAul

Very little is available on the ODM of Sudan, but some scraps exist online:

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals/sudan.html

http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=715

http://www.netdialogue.com/yy/Africa/Sudan/Sudan.htm

http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/cintas/cintasaf.htm#s where there are FOUR (!) pages on Sudan (!!!)

Last site is very good, however it is more often down than up.

Paul

Here you go: -

1st Type

2nd Type

Sorry they are not very good pictures!

Many thanks Megan,

Paul

Not having available sources to N. Koren medals can somebody tell me what the medal is?

Paul

So it would be correct to say that the 'face value' of this coin was nothing, and that it indicated that someone had paid ten shillings for it as a donation toward the SS?

Johnsy

I personally have a very uneasy feeling about the coin it seems very much like the fantasy issues that were produced post war for the Channel Islands, allegedly to have been made for the the Todt organisation but in fact made in some numbers by an American entrepreneur in the 1970's (see Currencies of the Anglo-Norman Isles, A. L. T. McCammon, Spink 1984, p. 166).

It looks fine to me. They were made by C.W. Thomas They are not a good quality as the Spink Circular Medal by Bowcher but nice to have ribbon with it

Paul

In 1941 it seems that any Princes in the Wehrmacht were made redundant...

Does anyone have any reference to this?

Thanks

Chris

Chris, I am suprised at this because I thought the erstwhile Duke of Albany and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Carl Eduard) had an honourary rany which he retained post 1941.

Paul

F?herczeg = Archiduke = Erzherzog

So this picture shows General Archiduke Joseph (Carl Ludwig) 1833-1905, Son of Archiduke Joseph Anton Johann 1776-1847 and Maria Dorothea of W?rttember (1819-1855) as far as i know.

haynau

Haynau you are absolutely spot on brief biographical details available on Wikpedia.

Paul

Thank you Paul. It is good to know what the language is, and what it means. It is still a mystery why it was found with the German pins in the veteran's belongings.

Don

Presumably he was a formers Student before enlisting, he certainly wouldn't have had anything masonic as the Fuhrer didn't like such things.

The inscription is in classical Greek and means pledge or surety but no way is it masonic more likely to be a student fraternity.

Paul

Looks like a perfectly normal pre 1951 Knight's breast badge to me, probably an issue post liberation.

Paul

Dear Paul,

If you look at ANS 2 there was a Turkish section which had a virtualy complete group of the Osmanie and Medjidie with scimitars. My suspicion is that the Ottoman Empire adopted such devices more for the benefit of Central Power allies than for their own troops. Certainly they are rare in all cases and extreme caution should be used by anyone thinking of purchasing examples as they have been (the scimitars) extensively faked (not suprising when you can multiply the value of a 5th Class badge by many times).

Paul

Hello every one

I am investigating this silver medal (51x44mm - 36grs).

It was described by Hremann v. Heiden in 1903 as a badge worn by the Belgian Rebel Commanders and members of the Council when the Brabant Revolt was successful in 1789. Very helpful information has been kindly given by the members of the outstanding french-speaking forum (Forum des Insignes et M?dailles) which confirms much of this.

One point remains to be clarified : what type of suspension could it have been worn from - ribbon or chain ? v. Heiden stated that it was a Belgian tricolour ribbon, but I find it rather difficult to believe.

One of these medals was sold at auction in The Hague by Schulmann in 1985.

It is certainly a very rare item and I have examined the illustration of the Schulman piece, Nov 1985, lot 2556 and yours is struck form the same dies. There is a lot of information about van Noot on the internet, especially the Wikpedia site which gives a good concise biography and his role in the Belgian revolt. As to suspension looking at the ring it would have been worn as a neck baddge, either suspended from a chain or a long thin ribbon from the Dutch draagpennings which are contemporary they were ussually worn with a single coloured ribbon. Whether van Heiden attribution is correct I doubt. The Dutch pieces were very much badges of political allegience as I suspect this is. Their low survival rate would suggest that in most cases they were destroyed, certainly after October 1790 it would have been a most dangerous thing to be found with and the likelihood if caught in possession was a lengthy spell in prison

Paul