paul wood

Hallo Fellow Members

I am trying to identify these two insignia:

Any ideas???

Kevin in Deva

Kevin,

I wonder if they may be badges to commemorate crossing the line (the Equator) Neptune fetures strongly in the ceremony,

Paul

It is the Venetian Senate's Student's Merit Medal for Literature. Following the disbandment of the Jesuits in 1773 there was a need to provide something to fill the educational gap they had left. The senate sent state teachers to continue the education. Under the Decree of the Senate 12 May 1781 allowed medals for the best pupils in their fields to be conferred anually. The engraver of the mint Anton Schaeffer was commissioned to make the medals. There were 4 grades of award large gold, large silver, small gold and small silver. The best student received the large gold, next best (your medal) large silver and so forth. The ceremony of conferring the medals took place iin August and was attended by the highest dignateries of the state.

Hope this information is of assistance.

Paul

PS. SC is "by the consent of the Senate"

Helle every one

I would greatly appreciate comments and information about this large (52mm-58grs) silver medal; unfortunately undated, it looks late XVIIIth Century.

On the obverse, under the feet of the Victory figure, the sculptor's signiture reads : A. SCHABEL. F. I would also love to know what the letters S.C. on the reverse stand for.

The latin legend on the reverse mentions an "Encouragement for the study of litterature given to Venitian youth".

I hope some of the learned members of this forum will be able to help with what is a proclaimed award, if not military I must say.

Thank you

Veteran

It is the Venetian Senate's Student's Merit Medal for Literature. Following the disbandment of the Jesuits in 1773 there was a need to provide something to fill the educational gap they had left. The senate sent state teachers to continue the education. Under the Decree of the Senate 12 May 1781 allowed medals for the best pupils in their fields to be conferred anually. The engraver of the mint Anton Schaeffer was commissioned to make the medals. There were 4 grades of award large gold, large silver, small gold and small silver. The best student received the large gold, next best (your medal) large silver and so forth. The ceremony of conferring the medals took place iin August and was attended by the highest dignateries of the state.

Hope this information is of assistance.

Paul

Haynau

Thank you so much for this very fast reply. No, the reverse bears no hallmark or maker's mark of any kind. The star is well made, very much like the workmanship of the Legion of honor, but no doubt also up to the Austrian level of finish.

One wonders about a Tuscanian order awarded until 1918.... or was it that the previous ArchDuke was an Austrian prince who awarded it as a souvereign in exile ?. Has anything been published about it? Would you put it among the Austrian orders?. I find it a little bit hard to locate. I knew about a Tuscanian Military Merit Order but the Civilian Order does not seem to have been particularly documented.

I am happy you liked the Leopold Order I showed. My Austrian pieces are few and only bought when they really looked nice. For a very long time collectors in France, where I live, were very snotty about Austrian material which was not well understood and hardly collected at all. So pieces could be picked up at very attractive prices. Things seem to have changed to-day with the openinig of the market to international trading.

The collection of imperial awards at the Hoffburg is an incredible place to visit and beautifully displayed. I enjoyed going there a couple of years ago on the occasion of a professionnal meeting, which was held in the palace. A wonderful experience.

I am very grateful.

Veteran

The Grand Dukes of Tuscany were members of the Habsburg Lorraine family which were also the ruling house of Austria-Hungary. Maria Theresia married Francis I of Habsburg Lorraine who was also Grand Duke of Tuscany. The last ruling Grand Duke Ferdinand I died in 1908 and therefore were entitled as the head of a Royal House to bestow dynastic decorations. From his exile (in Austria) he bestowed the orders.

Hope this is of help.

Paul

Could you please illustrate the Hallmarks it would be interesting to see.

Paul

These CB stall plates are pretty common on auctions and sales from real dealers. Removed over tine, it seems, trashed, and flogged away.

Circa 1980 they renovated the Bath chapel, somebody was able to buy all the stall plates from around the Peninsular war/Waterloo period. At the time they were more common than flies round a dung heap

Paul

Yes!! Nice new books.

Fot those of us not up to reading Chinese is there a key in English , I would agree most useful books. It would be nice if someone could do the same for Republic and War Lord pieces, I know Barry Weaver is producing a book on the Imperial series.

Paul

Have checked the 1920 Navy list under RNR no sign of him there.

Paul

Ever seen one of these before !?!?!?!

I lot of this stuff came out of Ethiopia in the late 1980's and 1990's and was sourced from a European gentleman who worked and lived out there (haven't deen him for about four years). I handled at least 10 UN Korea medals as well as quantities of the Order of the Trinity, King Solomon's Seal, Menelik II and the Star, in all cases no ribands but with UN Korea they are as easy to obtain as dog muck on the pavement. Whether other pople were doing similar things to my man I don't know but I know they were alsoturning up in one or two European auction houses. I don't know whther the supply has now dried up but certainly there are more of them on the market than you would suspect.

Paul

I think these are sold to tourists as a kind of novelty!! A bit like in the U.K. we see copies of V.Cs & D.F.C.s for sale in souvenir shops!!! Back when the iron curtain was drawn, those behind it used to visit each others countries just we in the west did to our allies countries. I am sure they too, wanted souvenirs for their families & friends. I think these are just for those purpose really.

They look okay for a bit of fun when you have lots of them in a display case; & are fun if a your smaller family members want to play dress up & war! They will have plenty of medals to wear & it matters not they get lost or damaged.

The difference is that fake VC's and GC's and the like usually have copy stamped on the reverse. These do not and what is worrying is that these will be being offered in years to come on E bay thus confusing the issue of what is right and what is wrong. Hopefully with China opening more and more up to the west somebody will be able to produce a definitive work on this material with at least an English summary, until this happens we will be at the faker's mercy. Unless a copy is clearly marked as such, even if it is of poor quality, it is potentially going to catch someone out.

Paul

I have looked in Guerra "Ordenes y Condecoranciones de Espana". He lists quite a few International Brigade commemoratives but not this one, so ergo I would assume that it is quite rare.

Paul

I would very much appreciate for any information regarding this badge. May be anyone know what this badge really is, what is the criteria for award and what the inscription says? Thanks.

It certainly relates to the First Balkan War, could it perchance be a Chaplain's badge, presumably they had a few on the battlefield, however I have never seen one before so extremely interesting.

Paul

Probably he needs a "South Africa 1902" clasp as well. The Medal roll should give the exact entitlement, but be careful, as often there was a supplemental roll for the date clasps and late entitlements.

I read this as his being entitled to Transvaal and S.A. 1902. Since the date clasps were often issued separately it might not have been on his medal.

1914 Army list only mention Trans. and OFS and states Queen's medal with 2 clasps, obviously the medal roll could confrm this or whether there is a different entitlement.

Paul

Thanks Paul!!

His details are as follows

2nd Lieut., Fenwick, N.A.F., 2nd Bn., Transvaal, EC Roll: 179/109, SA 1902

(Not sure exactly what EC Roll is!!)

He was with the Lancashire Fusiliers, that is all the infomation I have!!

Thanks for any help , really appreciated. The reason for me researching is that I have just acquired a MLE Rifle butt stock with the Lancs Fus "badge" carved into it and the initials N.A Fenwick. I am pretty sure it is this officer. It was sold as a WW1 stock on ebay but I suspect it is from the Boer war.

Cheers

Rich

Rich 1914 Army list War Services-Retired List (finished with the ASC Southern command 1909). Served in the S. African War 1902-took part in in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, May 02. Queen's medal with 2 clasps (so you need an OFS clasp).

Basically turned up and went home after a few weeks.

All the best,

Paul

Thanks Paul, looks like I'm going to have to request his service record, fortunately he was an officer so it should be straight forward!!

Rich

Rich,

If you have the guys rank name and regiment I have all the relevant arny lists so I may be able to give you the answer.

Paul

I am researching a chap who was awarded a QSA with Transvaal clasp, the date range for this award is 24/05/1900 - 31/05/1902

To get the clasp did he have to be in the Transvaal over this whole preiod? I'm trying to track his whereabout during his service and this is the only clasp he had. He was in the 2nd bat Lancs Fusiliers but it looks like he joined them after Spion Kop as he has no relief of Ladysmith clasp.

Thanks for any help

Rich

Dear Rich the clasp was issued to all troops in the transvaal any time between 24 May 1900-31 May 1902 who were ineligible for any action clasps in the Transvaal, So therefore not the whole period.

IE he could have had month in 1901.

Hope this helps,

Paul

Hello Hundtorget! Very interesting picture. Thiese priest awarded with order of St. Ann 1st class, and St. vladimir 2nd class. Very hight awards!

/quote]

Presumably a high ranking metropolitan.

Paul

Unfortunately the medal itself is a copy as it does not have the engraver's signature (T. Wyon). The naming is totally in corrct it shold be officially impressed whereas this is engraved. I''m glad you didn't spend a great deal on it. If I didn't know better I would suggest that this was an ex E-Bay starting off the description with "I don't know what this is..." In future you are better to go to reputable dealers or auction houses where if something goes wrong you always have some recourse.

All the best,

Paul

Its not Russo-Japanese war period cross. You know it have same number, but its different variation of IWW period. In 1914 started new numeration of GC. Cheers!

Thanks for that what exactly is the difference between the two clasps so I don't fall into that trap again.

All the best, Paul

Thank you all guys for comments! Sure ,Paul, those cross 1914-1915 issue and it number is 135 095.

Extremely nice, that would denote a Russo-Japanese war decoration for 1905, probably early spring. Very nice and collectable item to own.

Paul

rew.

Can't quite make the number out on the 4th class St Georges Cross looks although it's not a late WWI issue.

All the best,

Paul

Hi Jerome

Thanks for the photograph - very nice - but I'm not convinced that the medals are masonic.

There are two reasons for this: firstly, I don't recognise them although Scottish medals are different to English, nor do they have any obvious Masonic symbols; secondly, I wouldn't expect him to be wearing Masonic medals if he's not wearing the rest of his Masonic regalia (apron and, in Scotland, a sash as well).

The crest on the sporran looks more like a clan emblem to me, but I'm no expert.

Are there any other members of the list with knowledge of Scottish clan emblems?

Regards

Richard

One of the medals he is wearing is a Primrose League badge. The Primrose League was founded in 1883 as a organisation for propogating the ideas of conservatism and to give it a wide grass roots appeal. It ceased to exist in the 1990s

Paul

Qwinwall: There was an Ensign J. L. Wall in the 40th in 1815 (1815 Army List). He is also on the Medal Roll, appearing in Captain E. C. Bowen's company. This is the closest match I can find in this Regiment, but a medal to this man, would be named to 'Ensign'. Also searched 'Quin*' in the entire 1815 Army List, and found no close matches to any Army Officer. Without seeing the medal and the naming, I feel the medal (real or fake), has been renamed to a person who was not entitled to the medal. Two additional checks you can make - these medals were 'impressed' with the recipient's name, not 'engraved', which should be easy to spot. Another test is to balance the medal on it's edge, on a flat surface. Renames tend to fall.

Nobody of that name on the Waterloo Roll

Paul

Dear Paul,

thank you very much for this precious information!

I've tried to search if HMS Philomel had anything to do with Zanzibar and/or operations on the seas around that area, but no success...

Kind regards,

Enzo

Philomel I believe was involved in blockading Delgoa Bay area (the Transvaal's only supply port) with a number of other ships, in a vain effort ot starve the Boers.

Paul

Hello,

the medal, is actually a Queen's South Africa Medal, without bar (and no sign that there would have been one), named "W.E. BRAHMIN, SEEDIE. H.M.S. PHILOMEL".

The reason for the presence of this medal in Dr. Mac Donald's group is a mistery to me.

Regards,

Enzo

The no bar QSA to WE Brhamin is confirmed on Fevyer's roll.

Paul