James Hoard

Well, in that at least three instances regarding this comment, Gritzner is utterly, completely and totally wrong. 1 - The five class system with a single ribbon colour operated for foreigners only. Persians continued to have different coloured ribbons right until the order became obsolete, as - a) the statutes indicate, and b) the photographic evidence, illustrations and coloured portraits dating from the early 20th century suggest. 2- The LOH had Grand Crosses, officers, crosses and a whole system of crosses. Persia was a Muslim country, where the idea of crosses was anathema. It did not have the French system at all, it had first class, second class, third class, etc. 3- The L&S order also had medals for the likes of people below the officer class, e.g. non-commissioned officers, Royal household servants, clerical workers and people of similar ranks. The LOH did not have medals attached to it. Cheers, James

My replies to some of the comments made here by another poster. Comment: “...we don't have firman color discription for Arts&Science order ribbon”. Reply: true, we have not found seen any firman so far. However, virtually all original A&S examples that we find attached to medal bars, along with or in-between other decorations, appear to be only attached to red ribbons. The green ribbons, generally appear with single A&S decorations, presumably added to those which had long lost their actual ribbon. Some people, including those who posted here, have relied on mistaken articles they have seen in Western books and catalogues which assumed that the A&S decorations were not a separate decoration, but part of the L&S order. So assumed from that it was correct to attach a green ribbon. Comment: “... all L&S orders that we see nowadays have green ribbons (including standing lion versions). And if they all "replacements", then why dilettante dealers (as we know - they read Gritzner) replace all blue, red and white ribbons. And then again - many of these green ribbons are looking good (at least they are old enough to be authentic)”. Reply: All ribbons that we see in WESTERN markets appear with green ribbons. However, the green colour is not consistently the same. Even allowing for fading, the number and variety of shades of green is astounding - teal, moss, Lincoln, pale, dark, to almost blue. Sometimes moiré, sometimes plain silk and sometimes even plain weave. Any type, shade or make of green ribbon seems to do. Why, because the descriptions in Western publications only say “green”. So if the decoration has arrived at a dealer who has not seen the original ribbon, he reaches for his draw, sees that he has some spare green ribbons and attaches it. I find it hard to believe that a dealer in old medals and decorations does not have old green ribbons. As for blue ribbons being replaced, there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of that happening because a Western dealer would never see one on a L&S in the first place. The blue ribbon only attached to the very highest class and was awarded to only the highest ranking Persian royalty. Comment: “... Well, maybe in some point between 1872 and 1925 another regulation was adopted?” Reply: possibly true, but it is up to those who had no idea that there were any regulations in 1814, 1836, 1856 or 1872 in the first place, and make such a claim now, to provide evidence that there were any other regulations between the dates they claim. Cheers, James

Well, what does he actually say? According to Markus, on 11 February 2012 - 16:54: "With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon." Acoording to speedytop, Posted Today, 19:24: "Blue for the court, green for foreigners and red or white for (other) Persian citizens" If he says such different things to different people reading him, he must be wrong somewhere along the line! On the contrary, the 1836 firman says: The insignia of the order was to be worn from five different coloured ribbons (hamayelat), depending on the rank or official position of the recipient. Blue (abi) for the sovereign alone. Green (sabz)for those of the rank of Lieutenant General, or equivalent. Red (qermes) with green borders (hashi-ye sabz dashte bashad) for Major Generals, or equivalent rank. Red (qermes) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank. White (sefid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank. The 1856 firman: This decree extended the number of different coloured ribbons from five to eight. 1. Sky or clear blue (abi-e roushan) for sovereign alone. 2. Green (sabz) for those of the rank of Prime Minister or the highest court rank. 3. Cobalt blue (abi-e sir-tar) for recipients of the first class of the rank of Minister Plenipotentiary, or equivalent. 4. Dark blue in the centre with green borders (vasat abi-e sir-tar va astraf sabz) for those of the rank of military commander-in-chief or General commanding an army corps, or equivalent. 5. Red in the centre with green borders (vasat qermez atraf sabz) for Major Generals, or equivalent. 6. Red in the centre with white borders (vasat qermez atraf sefid) for Brigadier-Generals, or equivalent rank. 7. Red (qermez) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank. 8. White (safid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.Elsewhere, I have posted several links to contemporary photographs, illustrations and portraits of Persian dignitaries wearing the different coloured ribbons. Cheers, James

Of course, it does not mean he is right as that is exactly where our dealers may got it from. As for the ribbons of the Lion and Sun, the information is incorrect. The blue ribbon was for the sovereign alone. The other colours depended on the rank or occupation of the recipient, not the grade of award. So if he is wrong on the L&S, why should he be necessarily right on the Arts & Sciences? Cheers, James

Haha, yes indeed. I once saw a collection of photographs, some of which were later placed online in a Persian blog, containing private portraits of ladies of Nazir ud-din Shah's family. He was very interested in photography, so had pictures taken of a wide number of subjects. The pictures of the ladies were amazing. To a man, they were all blessed with thick unibrows and moustaches, one or two even had beards. All potential candidates for the uggliest man in the world competition. Of course the founder of the dynasty, Aga Muhmmad Qajar, was a eunuch. So arguing about the gender of the sun seems somewhat moot. I will indeed look into Afsaneh. Thank you for the tip. Cheers, James

Markus, I did warn when I posted the sources that some of them may be difficult to come by in the US. As far as I could find, several are only available in the US. There is no single source out there, one has to go through them all and each will have its contribution to make as well as its drawbacks. Cheers, James

I don't think that is quite correct. It is the use of Khanum (basically the feminine of Khan) that makes it female. For example, the expression for princess is actually "Shahzada Khanum", Shahzada being prince. A direct translation would consequently be "lady son of a king". Cheers, James

The Iranica article is not very helpful, apart form the illustrations and references, there is a good deal of gobbledegook throughout the text. It may have been written by someone with a knowledge of history but completely unfamiliar with orders and decorations. There are numerous points which I would take issue with, but they are too many to discuss here. So I shall try to restrict my comments to issues raised by drclaw in his post above. Firstly, the Order created by Nasir ud-din Shah in May 1873 was an entirely new decoration for ladies. He was in Russia and on his way to take part in his first State Visit to the UK, when he received news that Queen Victoria was going to give him the Garter. He suddenly realised that he had nothing equivalent to give her in return, so set to work establishing this new order while still in St Petersburg. The chief feature of the decoration was to include the full face image of a female sun (aftab), hence the name of the order Nishan-i-Aftab or for European consumption - The Imperial Order of the Sun for Ladies. In the event, the good Queen received both the new Order of the Sun as well as the Order of the Imperial Portrait, hitherto only bestowed on men. Second, the order created for Gardane, although known as The Order of the Sun in English, is known as the Nishan-i-Khurshid. Khurshid is the word for sun with a male face (note that my earlier article of 2007 mistakenly said Nishan-i-Shir). Gardane terminated his embassy and left Tehran on 26th January 1808, by which ime he had already received the Order of the Sun from Fath Ali Shah. He had been created a Khan and a General on 7th December 1807 at the start of the negotiations, and shortly afterwards received the order. When Gardanne left Tehran, he was given two further sets of the order intended for Telleyrand and Maret. When he arrived at Marseilles, he sent these two sets of insignia on to Paris via his brother, who supposedly delivered them to the ministry offices on 4th September 1808. There was also a set for Napoleon sent out some time during 1808 but who or when exactly it was delivered to him, I do not know. It should also be noted that the terminology associated with the Gardanne order is slightly different from the Order of the Lion and Sun. Persian sources say that recipients were known as Sahib-i-Nishan-i-Khurshid and the early French records which mention the awards to Gardanne, Teleyrand and Maret refer to the "Grand Order of the Sun" instead of first class or Grand Cross, etc. Third, it seems to be the case that Malcolm did indeed exaggerate his role in the creation of the Order of the Lion and Sun or Nishan-i-Shir u Khurshid. The order was supposedly founded as a domestic equivalent to the Order of the Sun sometime in 1808 and intended as a purely military decoration for the reformed troops under the overall command of the Crown Prince Abbas Mirza, i.e. those reorganized, equipped and drilled according to European methods. It is quite possible that the original insignia meant for the military was nothing more elaborate than a medal. Alas we have no visual evidence to prove or disprove this theory. It seems that what happened with Malcolm was that a breast star featuring the same design of the lion and sun was especially created for him, no such class or insignia having previously existed for this decoration. The other early recipients of the Order of the Lion and Sun were: Major-General Sir John Malcolm, GCB – 15th July 1810. The Most Honourable Richard Colley (Wellesley), 1st Marquess Wellesley of Norrogh, KG, PC, KP – 30th December 1811. The Right Honourable Sir Gore Ouseley, 1st Bart. PC, GCH - January 1812. Lieutenant-General H.E. N.R. Rtistchev - 1813. Major-General Sir Henry Lindsay-Bethune, of Kilconquhar, 1st Bart. (de jure 9th Earl of Lindsay) - 1816. Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Henry Willock – 1826. H.S.H. Charles-Maurice (de Telleyrand-Perigord), Duc de Telleyrand, Duc de Dino, Prince de Benevento and Grandee of the first class of Spain – sometime after 1826 (possibly a replacement for the earlier award of the Order of the Sun?). Lieutenant-Colonel Sir John Kinnear Macdonald - 1828. The Right Honourable Sir John McNeill, PC, GCB - 1833. The Russians also followed the British in refusing to accept the Order of the Sun for much the same reasons, it had been created for and bestowed on the enemy. Fath Ali Shah took some steps to regulate the order by issuing a firman on 4th May 1814 in which he limited the number of recipients of the first class, both foreign and domestic, to 12 members. At the same time bringing it more into line with European decorations by introducing a grand cordon in green and a collar and badge to go with the single insignia of a breast star. Fourth, it is certainly the case that the two orders existed side by side from 1808 to about 1826. After that date there seems to be no longer any mention of the Nishan-i-Khurshid. Cheers, James

Yes, I think the photographic evidence in the article by Commissary-General Stiot, in the Revue Belge d’Histoire Militaire XVI-7/8, Bruxelles (1966), shows very different insignia for the Order of the Sun. Not only the central design with a depiction of the sun, without lion, but also the overall shape and design of the badge - a six-armed enamelled star in the shape of flower petals. See #161 The Order of the Sun seems to have fallen into disuse sometime in the 1820's. Up to the early 1820's there are a few reports in the memoirs of European officers who served in the Persian army, about the Crown Prince Abbas Mirza making the odd award, but nothing after 1826. Cheers, James

There is in fact slightly more detail on Telleyrand's order. It seems that his insignia with the Lion and Sun was received after 1820/1826, by which time the Order of the Sun had ceased to be awarded. The Lion and Sun was probably a new award. Although, it is quite possible that due to the Napoleonic Wars his orginal insignia of the Order of the Sun may have never never actually been dispatched to him or was lost in transit. It may be an idea when referring to recipients to use their full names, e.g. Sir John Malcolm not 'Sir Malcolm' and Sir John Kinnear Macdonald not 'Sir John Macdonald'. With an order that was bestowed in such great numbers, it may otherwise cause much confusion to the average reader. Cheers, James

Well, you came here all pleased as punch with yourself and with the sole object of trying to denegrate. I can refer to myself any which way I like. That is none of your business one way or the other, any more than it is mine in regard to the aliases any other author may wish to use or, indeed you may wish to use on this forum or elsewhere.

Oh what wonderful "detective" work. Tell me. Did your "intelligence" reach far enough to prize you that Christopher Buyers and James are the same person? James

We are going round in circles. - it is perfectly obvious that red ribbons belong to this order. You yourself have presented evidence to that effect. - I have never claimed that the Order of Ilmi had multicoloured ribbons, so you are setting up a straw man. - it is now pretty clear that the the standing lion is not the Order of Ilmi, but quite possibly the equivalent decoration of the Military War College. There isn't a lot of point in continuing this discussion. You have a pet theory, not based on anything very much and you want to stick to it. That's fine, but not much use in advancing the discussion or contributing to the subject. I leave you to it. Cheers, James

I don't know about ALL dealers, there obviously were some who sell and have sold this decoration with its actual red ribbon. As for satisfying the demand for green ribbons, not a difficult task. Quite obviously any shade of green, moire, plain of indeed any weave whatever, does fine for the rest. Cheers, James

It is perfectly obvious what happened here. Like you, the dealer originally had no idea that this was a distinct decoration. He saw the lion and sun motif, assumed it was part of that order, so added a green ribbon. Cheers, James

Nick, I have posted on this in the other thread, but what I said was I have read about a similar decoration to the one at the Polytechnic at the Tehran Military War College. However, I have not been able to find out anything more about it, whether it survived and later morphed into a full-scale state decoration, what classes there were, ribbon colour (if any) or description of insignia. Given the standing lion and sword, this could be it. Cheers, James

I remember reading once that the Military War College in Tehran had a decoration for its students and professors, a military counterpart for the civil decoration at the Polytechnic. But I have never found any further information about it, what became of it or if it also eventually morphed into an official state decoration. Perhaps this decoration with the standing lion holding sword is actually the War College decoration, rather than the Nishan-i-Ilmi. Again, I think we can forget the green ribbon. More dealer's 'hocus-pocus'. Cheers, James

This is a separate decoration and not a division of the Order of the Lion and Sun. Officially instituted in 1852 and called the Nishan-i-Ilmi (Order of the Arts and Sciences) as a reward artistic and scientific merit for those who had achieved success in their studies at the recently founded Polytechnic College of Tehran. Later converted to a full scale state order of merit for the advancement of learning and dissemination of knowledge by scientists, writers, educators, artists, etc. Perhaps the administrator could move #78, # 79 and # 42 to a new thread? Cheers, James

Oops, sorry. I forgot to answer the question about the small stars. The small stars between the rays applied between 1856 and 1872. They were removed because of the confusion with the breast stars of Order of the Aghdas, which had been instituted in 1870. Thereafter the class was indicated by the number of rays, eight for the first class down to four for the fifth class. By the way, the Order of the Aghdas was partly instituted because of the continuing craving for jewelled insignia which could not be satisfied with the exclusive Order of the Portrait (Nishan-i-Tamtal-i-Humayun) which had been instituted in 1856. Cheers, James

The 1836 firman still describes the order in terms of jewelled insignia. For example, those awarded to diplomats were encrusted with a variety of precious stones. Those awarded to clerics, encrusted in emeralds. When conferred on those from other fields, in rubies and topazes.So I am not quite sure where you got the date 1834 from. The jewelled insignia were replaced by polished silver for all future awards in the 1856 firman. The reason given at the time was that these decorations were supposed to be emblems of honour and not meant to be a means of enriching the wealth of the recipients. Cheers, James

Nick, The statutes are mid-nineteenth century and some of the pictures from the early twentieth century. So I guess, the followed the statutes as long as they were in place. The picture that you highlight is post 1848 because that is a young Nadir ud-din Shah. As for the green ribbon, I guess the conclusion must be that green was the ribbon colour for foreigners, whichever grade, military or civil. There is no specific mention of that in the statutes, but that is my guess. Cheers, James

Not quite. We have plenty of contemporary photographic evidence in portraits and other photographs of people wearing these different coloured ribbons. We also have painted portraits in colour, though fewer in number. See for examples: http://iranfederal.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/khazal_1295-to-right.jpg http://www.royalark.net/Persia/Mohammerah-khazal.jpg http://www.worldisround.com/articles/255115/photo83.html http://www.worldisround.com/articles/255115/photo87.html http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Brooklyn_Museum_-_Mohammad_%27Ali_Shah_with_Mirza_Mohammad_Ebrahim_Khan_the_Moavin_al-Dowleh_and_Company_One_of_274_Vintage_Photographs.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/AbbasMirza.gif http://www.parstimes.com/images/amir_kabir_stamp.gif http://darolqajar.com/wpimages/wp2e194d23_05.jpg http://www.qajarpages.org/images/NezamiyehpanelSonsAbbasMirza.JPG http://www.portalestoria.net/IMAGES%2059/QAJAR.gif http://www.cultureofiran.com/images/pictures/46.jpg http://storage.canalblog.com/05/45/119589/71767674_p.jpg http://images.arcadja.com/ali_khan_ghulam-al_mulk_amin_al_sultan_atabeg_i_azam_~300~10000_20061011_1450512486_55.jpg Some of these are incorrectly labelled as to the identities of the people depicted, but there is enough evidence in them for the purposes we are dealing with here. Cheers, James

In my humble opinion nobody should be even thinking of spending that kind of money without demanding a provenance. One could perhaps imagine that sought of price for a piece studded with diamonds and precious stones, but even then a provenance would be essential. Since these decorations were rarely awarded, and then to men of high position, providing it should not prove difficult. If the dealer sounds as if it is proving difficult, head for the exit! Cheers, James

I have a copies of the firmans or regulations for two of the reorganisations of the order. Apart from that, other more available references which you may like to try and find wherever you are located if you can. Alas, some of them may a little hard to access in the USA: L. Brasier and J.L. Brunet, Les Ordres Persans, Actualites Diplomatiques & Coloniales, Arthus Bertrand et Beranger, Paris, 1902. Persia: Military Attache’s Intelligence Summary No. 12, Period 24th – 30th March, 1947. E 3084/17/34. Iran Political Diaries, 1881-1965, Volume 13, p. 300. India Office Records, British Library, St Pancras, London. Piemontese, Angelo M., The Statutes of the Qajar Orders of Knighthood. East and West Quarterly, New Series, Volume 19, Nos 3-4, September – December 1969, Instituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente (IsMEO), Rome, 1969. Rosignoli, Guido, Ribbons of Orders, Decorations and Medals. Blandford Press Ltd., Poole, Dorset, 1976. Stiot, Commissaire General R.D. Les Ordres du Croissant Turc et du Soleil Levant en Perse ou deux influences rivales en Orient, Revue Belge d’Histoire Militaire, XVI-7/8, Bruxelles, 1966. Wright, Sir Denis, “Sir John Malcolm and the Order of the Lion and Sun”. Iran, Volume XVII, pp 135-141, The British Institute of Persian Studies, London, 1979. Wright, Denis, “The Order of the Lion and Sun”. Short Notices, Iran, Volume XIX, pp 179-180, The British Institute of Persian Studies, London, 1981. Cheers, James

Markus, What I have is photocopies of the official translation into French. Not the original firmans. Having said that, not all original firmans are illuminated or illustrated. A good many, the majority, are very simple handwritten letters although the paper is usually of good quality, the calligraphy superb and there is usually at least some decorative header or perhaps a border Cheers, James.