James Hoard

Gritzner wrote in 1893, that the "Löwen- und Sonnenorden" had the same rank system as the French Légion d’honneur (hinsichtlich der Klassen rangierend genau mit denen des französischen Ordens der Ehrenlegion).

Uwe

Well, in that at least three instances regarding this comment, Gritzner is utterly, completely and totally wrong.

1 - The five class system with a single ribbon colour operated for foreigners only. Persians continued to have different coloured ribbons right until the order became obsolete, as -

2- The LOH had Grand Crosses, officers, crosses and a whole system of crosses. Persia was a Muslim country, where the idea of crosses was anathema. It did not have the French system at all, it had first class, second class, third class, etc.

3- The L&S order also had medals for the likes of people below the officer class, e.g. non-commissioned officers, Royal household servants, clerical workers and people of similar ranks. The LOH did not have medals attached to it.

Cheers,

James

My replies to some of the comments made here by another poster.

Comment: “...we don't have firman color discription for Arts&Science order ribbon”.

Reply: true, we have not found seen any firman so far. However, virtually all original A&S examples that we find attached to medal bars, along with or in-between other decorations, appear to be only attached to red ribbons. The green ribbons, generally appear with single A&S decorations, presumably added to those which had long lost their actual ribbon.

Some people, including those who posted here, have relied on mistaken articles they have seen in Western books and catalogues which assumed that the A&S decorations were not a separate decoration, but part of the L&S order. So assumed from that it was correct to attach a green ribbon.

Comment: “... all L&S orders that we see nowadays have green ribbons (including standing lion versions). And if they all "replacements", then why dilettante dealers (as we know - they read Gritzner) replace all blue, red and white ribbons. And then again - many of these green ribbons are looking good (at least they are old enough to be authentic)”.

Reply: All ribbons that we see in WESTERN markets appear with green ribbons. However, the green colour is not consistently the same. Even allowing for fading, the number and variety of shades of green is astounding - teal, moss, Lincoln, pale, dark, to almost blue. Sometimes moiré, sometimes plain silk and sometimes even plain weave. Any type, shade or make of green ribbon seems to do. Why, because the descriptions in Western publications only say “green”. So if the decoration has arrived at a dealer who has not seen the original ribbon, he reaches for his draw, sees that he has some spare green ribbons and attaches it.

I find it hard to believe that a dealer in old medals and decorations does not have old green ribbons.

As for blue ribbons being replaced, there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of that happening because a Western dealer would never see one on a L&S in the first place. The blue ribbon only attached to the very highest class and was awarded to only the highest ranking Persian royalty.

Comment: “... Well, maybe in some point between 1872 and 1925 another regulation was adopted?”

Reply: possibly true, but it is up to those who had no idea that there were any regulations in 1814, 1836, 1856 or 1872 in the first place, and make such a claim now, to provide evidence that there were any other regulations between the dates they claim.

Cheers,

James

Hi James,

"So if he is wrong on the L&S, ..."

Why is Gritzner wrong on the L&S?

Uwe

Well, what does he actually say?

According to Markus, on 11 February 2012 - 16:54:

"With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon."

Acoording to speedytop, Posted Today, 19:24:

"Blue for the court, green for foreigners and red or white for (other) Persian citizens"

If he says such different things to different people reading him, he must be wrong somewhere along the line!

On the contrary, the 1836 firman says:

The insignia of the order was to be worn from five different coloured ribbons (hamayelat), depending on the rank or official position of the recipient. Blue (abi) for the sovereign alone. Green (sabz)for those of the rank of Lieutenant General, or equivalent. Red (qermes) with green borders (hashi-ye sabz dashte bashad) for Major Generals, or equivalent rank. Red (qermes) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank. White (sefid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.

The 1856 firman:

This decree extended the number of different coloured ribbons from five to eight. 1. Sky or clear blue (abi-e roushan) for sovereign alone. 2. Green (sabz) for those of the rank of Prime Minister or the highest court rank. 3. Cobalt blue (abi-e sir-tar) for recipients of the first class of the rank of Minister Plenipotentiary, or equivalent. 4. Dark blue in the centre with green borders (vasat abi-e sir-tar va astraf sabz) for those of the rank of military commander-in-chief or General commanding an army corps, or equivalent. 5. Red in the centre with green borders (vasat qermez atraf sabz) for Major Generals, or equivalent. 6. Red in the centre with white borders (vasat qermez atraf sefid) for Brigadier-Generals, or equivalent rank. 7. Red (qermez) for Brigadiers, or those of equivalent rank. 8. White (safid) for Colonels, or equivalent rank.Elsewhere, I have posted several links to contemporary photographs, illustrations and portraits of Persian dignitaries wearing the different coloured ribbons.

Cheers,

James

Wow, I love these early line drawings of the Lion and Sun orders. In post #7 there is mention of different colored ribbons as well. With the Fifth class the ribbon is blue for Persians, green for foreigners and for "Berfer" ( can't find translation) red or white ribbon. A fantastic resource that will take further scrutiny and translation! Thanks Nick! You found confirmation as to your theory that a green ribbon existed for the Order of Arts and Science! Some of those green ribbons did look quite old on Arts & Science order.

Of course, it does not mean he is right as that is exactly where our dealers may got it from.

As for the ribbons of the Lion and Sun, the information is incorrect. The blue ribbon was for the sovereign alone. The other colours depended on the rank or occupation of the recipient, not the grade of award. So if he is wrong on the L&S, why should he be necessarily right on the Arts & Sciences?

Cheers,

James

James -- I think you are right. Here is an excerpt from the book "Men with Mustaches and Men Without Beards" by Afsaneh Najmabadi:

"In this intensified visual regime, the sun, evoking the sun king for the Persianate dominion, became intimately identified with the person of Fath'ali Shah. The sun as metaphor for the ruling monarchs (including non-Iranian ones) predates the Qajars, and the expression khawrshidkulah (sun-hatted person) ws common. Although since the early Qajar period, this expression has been used to identify Catherine II of Russsia, in Safavi and early Qajar sources it was applied to any monarch. Aqa Muhammad Qajar, the fouder of the dynasty, was described through a number of sun-related metaphors, such as khawrshid'ara (adorning of the su) and khawrshid'khassiyat (having the same qualities as the sun). But it was the poets and writers of Fath'ali Shah's court who saturated the metaphoric field with the sun king. Two figures in particular delighted in inventing and proliferating sun metaphors for Fath'ali Shah: the court poet Fath'ali Khan Saba and the historian Rustam al-Hukama. Many of Saba's panegyrics center on the notion of Fath'ali Shah as sun. One of his best-known and most eloquent panegyrics, composed for the occasion of welcoming the Persian new year (nawruz) was a comparison between the sun in the sky and the sun on earth, with the opening verse:

Two suns from which the earth and time turned afresh

One entered the palace of hamal, the other the place of Kian."

Haha, yes indeed.

I once saw a collection of photographs, some of which were later placed online in a Persian blog, containing private portraits of ladies of Nazir ud-din Shah's family. He was very interested in photography, so had pictures taken of a wide number of subjects. The pictures of the ladies were amazing. To a man, they were all blessed with thick unibrows and moustaches, one or two even had beards. All potential candidates for the uggliest man in the world competition. Of course the founder of the dynasty, Aga Muhmmad Qajar, was a eunuch. So arguing about the gender of the sun seems somewhat moot.

I will indeed look into Afsaneh. Thank you for the tip.

Cheers,

James

Thanks James, As Always, your scholarly and intimate knowledge of this order is amazing and deeply appreciated !

Regarding the early book, L. Brasier and J.L. Brunet, Les Ordres Persans, Actualites Diplomatiques & Coloniales, Arthus Bertrand et Beranger, Paris, 1902, are there any digital copies of this book in any libraries? I seem to come up empty searching for an original copy of the book. Did the book have illustrations? Lastly, do you consider this book an accurate source of Persians order history?

Markus,

I did warn when I posted the sources that some of them may be difficult to come by in the US. As far as I could find, several are only available in the US.

There is no single source out there, one has to go through them all and each will have its contribution to make as well as its drawbacks.

Cheers,

James

"Second, the order created for Gardane, although known as The Order of the Sun in English, is known as the Nishan-i-Khurshid. Khurshid is the word for sun with a male face (note that my earlier article of 2007 mistakenly said Nishan-i-Shir)."

James -- Thank you for all the information. There is one thing that is not adding up. As far as I can tell, Khurshid is not the word for sun with male face. Khurshid has a female gender in Farsi. "Khurshid Khonom" means "lady sun". Could it be that folks are making a wrong compare/contrast between order of Khurshid and Order of Aftab? They both could reprsent a lady face however during naseraldin shah the lady sun had much more pronounced female features with attached eyebrows, etc.

I don't think that is quite correct. It is the use of Khanum (basically the feminine of Khan) that makes it female. For example, the expression for princess is actually "Shahzada Khanum", Shahzada being prince. A direct translation would consequently be "lady son of a king".

Cheers,

James

The Iranica article is not very helpful, apart form the illustrations and references, there is a good deal of gobbledegook throughout the text. It may have been written by someone with a knowledge of history but completely unfamiliar with orders and decorations. There are numerous points which I would take issue with, but they are too many to discuss here. So I shall try to restrict my comments to issues raised by drclaw in his post above.

Firstly, the Order created by Nasir ud-din Shah in May 1873 was an entirely new decoration for ladies. He was in Russia and on his way to take part in his first State Visit to the UK, when he received news that Queen Victoria was going to give him the Garter. He suddenly realised that he had nothing equivalent to give her in return, so set to work establishing this new order while still in St Petersburg. The chief feature of the decoration was to include the full face image of a female sun (aftab), hence the name of the order Nishan-i-Aftab or for European consumption - The Imperial Order of the Sun for Ladies. In the event, the good Queen received both the new Order of the Sun as well as the Order of the Imperial Portrait, hitherto only bestowed on men.

Second, the order created for Gardane, although known as The Order of the Sun in English, is known as the Nishan-i-Khurshid. Khurshid is the word for sun with a male face (note that my earlier article of 2007 mistakenly said Nishan-i-Shir).

Gardane terminated his embassy and left Tehran on 26th January 1808, by which ime he had already received the Order of the Sun from Fath Ali Shah. He had been created a Khan and a General on 7th December 1807 at the start of the negotiations, and shortly afterwards received the order.

When Gardanne left Tehran, he was given two further sets of the order intended for Telleyrand and Maret. When he arrived at Marseilles, he sent these two sets of insignia on to Paris via his brother, who supposedly delivered them to the ministry offices on 4th September 1808. There was also a set for Napoleon sent out some time during 1808 but who or when exactly it was delivered to him, I do not know.

It should also be noted that the terminology associated with the Gardanne order is slightly different from the Order of the Lion and Sun. Persian sources say that recipients were known as Sahib-i-Nishan-i-Khurshid and the early French records which mention the awards to Gardanne, Teleyrand and Maret refer to the "Grand Order of the Sun" instead of first class or Grand Cross, etc.

Third, it seems to be the case that Malcolm did indeed exaggerate his role in the creation of the Order of the Lion and Sun or Nishan-i-Shir u Khurshid. The order was supposedly founded as a domestic equivalent to the Order of the Sun sometime in 1808 and intended as a purely military decoration for the reformed troops under the overall command of the Crown Prince Abbas Mirza, i.e. those reorganized, equipped and drilled according to European methods. It is quite possible that the original insignia meant for the military was nothing more elaborate than a medal. Alas we have no visual evidence to prove or disprove this theory.

It seems that what happened with Malcolm was that a breast star featuring the same design of the lion and sun was especially created for him, no such class or insignia having previously existed for this decoration.

The other early recipients of the Order of the Lion and Sun were:

The Most Honourable Richard Colley (Wellesley), 1st Marquess Wellesley of Norrogh, KG, PC, KP – 30th December 1811.

The Right Honourable Sir Gore Ouseley, 1st Bart. PC, GCH - January 1812.

Lieutenant-General H.E. N.R. Rtistchev - 1813.

Major-General Sir Henry Lindsay-Bethune, of Kilconquhar, 1st Bart. (de jure 9th Earl of Lindsay) - 1816.

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Henry Willock – 1826.

H.S.H. Charles-Maurice (de Telleyrand-Perigord), Duc de Telleyrand, Duc de Dino, Prince de Benevento and Grandee of the first class of Spain – sometime after 1826 (possibly a replacement for the earlier award of the Order of the Sun?).

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir John Kinnear Macdonald - 1828.

The Right Honourable Sir John McNeill, PC, GCB - 1833.

The Russians also followed the British in refusing to accept the Order of the Sun for much the same reasons, it had been created for and bestowed on the enemy.

Fath Ali Shah took some steps to regulate the order by issuing a firman on 4th May 1814 in which he limited the number of recipients of the first class, both foreign and domestic, to 12 members. At the same time bringing it more into line with European decorations by introducing a grand cordon in green and a collar and badge to go with the single insignia of a breast star.

Fourth, it is certainly the case that the two orders existed side by side from 1808 to about 1826. After that date there seems to be no longer any mention of the Nishan-i-Khurshid.

Cheers,

James

Very nice points James. I have changed my references to full names. So the later issuance of Talleyrand's order would be the reason his order contained both lion and sun. That fact supports the theory of two separate orders. So few of the Order of the Sun medals were awarded it seems.

Markus

Yes, I think the photographic evidence in the article by Commissary-General Stiot, in the Revue Belge d’Histoire Militaire XVI-7/8, Bruxelles (1966), shows very different insignia for the Order of the Sun. Not only the central design with a depiction of the sun, without lion, but also the overall shape and design of the badge - a six-armed enamelled star in the shape of flower petals. See #161

The Order of the Sun seems to have fallen into disuse sometime in the 1820's. Up to the early 1820's there are a few reports in the memoirs of European officers who served in the Persian army, about the Crown Prince Abbas Mirza making the odd award, but nothing after 1826.

Cheers,

James

The birth of the Persian Lion Sun Order started off as the Order of The Sun around 1807 modeled after the French Legion of Honor. Before this time the Persians did not have order medals and it is thought that the interaction with the Europeans created a desire and a need for an order medal. Napoleon I, French General Trézel, and French General Gardane were awarded the Order of the Sun by Persia featuring a rising sun. The black and white image attached shows the order of the Sun that was presented to Napoleon I. In 1908 Charles Maurice de Talleyrand, Former French Minister of Foreign Affairs, is honored by Persia with the same Order of the Sun, except Talleyrand’s order had depictions of the lion and sun together on both his badge and breast star.

There is in fact slightly more detail on Telleyrand's order.

It seems that his insignia with the Lion and Sun was received after 1820/1826, by which time the Order of the Sun had ceased to be awarded. The Lion and Sun was probably a new award. Although, it is quite possible that due to the Napoleonic Wars his orginal insignia of the Order of the Sun may have never never actually been dispatched to him or was lost in transit.

It may be an idea when referring to recipients to use their full names, e.g. Sir John Malcolm not 'Sir Malcolm' and Sir John Kinnear Macdonald not 'Sir John Macdonald'. With an order that was bestowed in such great numbers, it may otherwise cause much confusion to the average reader.

Cheers,

James

I really don't know James. It's not really a question of intelligence - it's a question of how many names one person actually have.

How do you think I can figure out who you actually are?

Especially if you have a habit to refer to yourself in the third person.

Post # 6 in http://gmic.co.uk/in...-persian-order/

Well, you came here all pleased as punch with yourself and with the sole object of trying to denegrate.

I can refer to myself any which way I like. That is none of your business one way or the other, any more than it is mine in regard to the aliases any other author may wish to use or, indeed you may wish to use on this forum or elsewhere.

Remember this Babar?

Well I just found the real source of James "background".

Here it is

http://web.archive.o...rsia-orders.htm

Even the list of literature is the same (actually it is exactly the same!)

All posts of James with information about this order and its variations were created by simple operation "choose-copy-paste".

Even the color of these fragments are slightly different from ordinary typing color.

Hope you (and all our colleagues) will found this great source interesting.

It was created by Christopher Buyers in 2002 - 2007.

Regards,

Nick

Oh what wonderful "detective" work. Tell me. Did your "intelligence" reach far enough to prize you that Christopher Buyers and James are the same person?

James

I guess these were the lazy ones - they either had idea (unlike me ) or they just couldn't care less

Then, from my personal experience "dealing with dealers", we should observe red and multicolor ribbons all over the market.

It's not only the color that matters, it's the ribbon material, the size, the clasp or the tie, etc... Not to mention that some color shades are quite frequent and they are green one and they hold standing lions... And then please take a look at post #13... Looks like these ribbons came from the same manufacturer (as well as orders).

But of course there is a probability that all this ribbons are replacements. I just couldn't imagine such hard-working dealers

And I just don't understand why you are so confident, that ALL these ribbons are indeed replacements James...

Well, this last question was a rhetorical one James

Cheers,

Nick

P.S. Could you please post photos of the orders with standing lions on multicolor ribbons, because I'd really like to see them (for a change!)

We are going round in circles.

- it is perfectly obvious that red ribbons belong to this order. You yourself have presented evidence to that effect.

- I have never claimed that the Order of Ilmi had multicoloured ribbons, so you are setting up a straw man.

- it is now pretty clear that the the standing lion is not the Order of Ilmi, but quite possibly the equivalent decoration of the Military War College.

There isn't a lot of point in continuing this discussion. You have a pet theory, not based on anything very much and you want to stick to it. That's fine, but not much use in advancing the discussion or contributing to the subject.

I leave you to it.

Cheers,

James

Of course James, all these dealers - they all just like me...

And it is obvious of course.

24/7 they are busy with replacement process.

Everything that is not green was destroyed.

And this green ribbons ...

I guess there was some manufacturer to satisfy this dealer demand?

Cheers,

Nick

I don't know about ALL dealers, there obviously were some who sell and have sold this decoration with its actual red ribbon.

As for satisfying the demand for green ribbons, not a difficult task. Quite obviously any shade of green, moire, plain of indeed any weave whatever, does fine for the rest.

Cheers,

James

I see you are deadly serious about this "replacement hypothesis" James

It is perfectly obvious what happened here.

Like you, the dealer originally had no idea that this was a distinct decoration. He saw the lion and sun motif, assumed it was part of that order, so added a green ribbon.

Cheers,

James

I wonder if 19 century Persians were confused by all this multiform and multicolor order...

Nice one James!!! Thanks for this info!

But now we don't have our precious lion and sun specimen with non-green ribbon.

Good thing I didn't get used to this red ribbon "looks exactly like lion and sun" piece

Could you tell if the superimposed silver crown (specimens #42 and #78) is a

1) indication of additional merit

2) indication of class

3) caprice of manufacturer

And really interesting one - why standing lion in case of #78??? I wonder... Military division of college?

Cheers,

Nick

Nick,

I have posted on this in the other thread, but what I said was I have read about a similar decoration to the one at the Polytechnic at the Tehran Military War College. However, I have not been able to find out anything more about it, whether it survived and later morphed into a full-scale state decoration, what classes there were, ribbon colour (if any) or description of insignia.

Given the standing lion and sword, this could be it.

Cheers,

James

Officially instituted in 1852 and called the Nishan-i-Ilmi (Order of the Arts and Sciences) as a reward artistic and scientific merit for those who had achieved success in their studies at the recently founded Polytechnic College of Tehran. Later converted to a full scale state order of merit for the advancement of learning and dissemination of knowledge by scientists, writers, educators, artists, etc. (Thank You James Hoard for this information.) According to an article written by Robert Macnamara in OMSA publication, This order had four classes, beginning with a copper medal, then an eight-pointed badge, in silver and in gilt, and a ten-pointed badge in gilt for first class. The upper classes in particular were more or less reserved for foreign professors, many from Vienna, who staffed the institution. Spada Collection, exhibited in The Legion of Honor Museum Paris France.

I remember reading once that the Military War College in Tehran had a decoration for its students and professors, a military counterpart for the civil decoration at the Polytechnic. But I have never found any further information about it, what became of it or if it also eventually morphed into an official state decoration.

Perhaps this decoration with the standing lion holding sword is actually the War College decoration, rather than the Nishan-i-Ilmi.

Again, I think we can forget the green ribbon. More dealer's 'hocus-pocus'.

Cheers,

James

Different models of the Lion & Sun Art & Science division. Private collection

This is a separate decoration and not a division of the Order of the Lion and Sun. Officially instituted in 1852 and called the Nishan-i-Ilmi (Order of the Arts and Sciences) as a reward artistic and scientific merit for those who had achieved success in their studies at the recently founded Polytechnic College of Tehran. Later converted to a full scale state order of merit for the advancement of learning and dissemination of knowledge by scientists, writers, educators, artists, etc.

Perhaps the administrator could move #78, # 79 and # 42 to a new thread?

Cheers,

James

Hi James,

The other question is on the stars between the rays on some of the 1st & 2nd class breast stars. Does this design incorporating stars between rays end at some point or does the practice continue throughout the history of the Lion & Sun order making. Thanks!

Markus

Oops, sorry. I forgot to answer the question about the small stars.

The small stars between the rays applied between 1856 and 1872. They were removed because of the confusion with the breast stars of Order of the Aghdas, which had been instituted in 1870. Thereafter the class was indicated by the number of rays, eight for the first class down to four for the fifth class.

By the way, the Order of the Aghdas was partly instituted because of the continuing craving for jewelled insignia which could not be satisfied with the exclusive Order of the Portrait (Nishan-i-Tamtal-i-Humayun) which had been instituted in 1856.

Cheers,

James

Hi James,

Wow it is great to have a scholar with so much depth on Persian order medals! I read the Persian medal Firman statues of 1834 and it states that gem laden Lion & Sun medals were replaced with silver work medals. Do you think the practice of adding jewels or paste stones to the Lion & Sun medal continued after 1834 to suit the taste of the owner or silver ones completely replaced that practice? The posts of #20,#36,#41,#43 & #76 in this thread illustrate the jeweled Lion & Suns. I was wondering if it was safe to date the jeweled medals pre-1834. The other question is on the stars between the rays on some of the 1st & 2nd class breast stars. Does this design incorporating stars between rays end at some point or does the practice continue throughout the history of the Lion & Sun order making. Thanks!

Markus

The 1836 firman still describes the order in terms of jewelled insignia. For example, those awarded to diplomats were encrusted with a variety of precious stones. Those awarded to clerics, encrusted in emeralds. When conferred on those from other fields, in rubies and topazes.So I am not quite sure where you got the date 1834 from.

The jewelled insignia were replaced by polished silver for all future awards in the 1856 firman. The reason given at the time was that these decorations were supposed to be emblems of honour and not meant to be a means of enriching the wealth of the recipients.

Cheers,

James

Hi James

I see some of this portraits before. When I said "we don't observe" I meant present days.

No doubts many of these noble men have multicolor ribbons ...

Just like it was prescribed by statute.

It could means that

1) everything was working right by the book for top-brass guys (and maybe for all others not so lucky guys, but for how long after introduction of this statute/regulation?)

2) painters knew the statute

3) every ribbon on orders with standing lion is replacement, if it is green (I just couldn't believe in this scenario)

What really puzzles me is that we don't see these ribbons on the market together with standing lions orders in higher classes.

Not to mention the lower classes with standing lion.

Real bummer that only lying lions are visible on portraits (actually only in one portrait) and we could treat at this as an indirect evidence that Persians get lying lions too (indirect - because I think this portrait http://storage.canal.../71767674_p.jpg was painted before 1842 (?) or am I wrong (?))

Thanks for creating this interesting portrait/photo compilation.

Best regards,

Nick

Nick,

The statutes are mid-nineteenth century and some of the pictures from the early twentieth century. So I guess, the followed the statutes as long as they were in place.

The picture that you highlight is post 1848 because that is a young Nadir ud-din Shah.

As for the green ribbon, I guess the conclusion must be that green was the ribbon colour for foreigners, whichever grade, military or civil. There is no specific mention of that in the statutes, but that is my guess.

Cheers,

James

Progress report

For some unknown reason foreigners (civil men and military men) got their orders with lying lion and on green ribbons.

Military persians got their orders with standing lions and civil with lying lions. Color of the ribbons for military personel varried with rank of recipient. The only problem is that we don`t observe these multi-color ribbon specimens (not to mentioned the quantity of orders with standing lion on plain green ribbon). We have "statutes" that couldn`t be confirmed by our current experience.

So our next stop - a group with lion and sun order for persian military and/or civil man. Well, I think the chances that we will see such group are pretty low...

In the next couple of days I will post some new observations.

Cheers,

Nick

Not quite.

We have plenty of contemporary photographic evidence in portraits and other photographs of people wearing these different coloured ribbons. We also have painted portraits in colour, though fewer in number.

See for examples:

http://iranfederal.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/khazal_1295-to-right.jpg

http://www.royalark.net/Persia/Mohammerah-khazal.jpg

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/255115/photo83.html

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/255115/photo87.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Brooklyn_Museum_-_Mohammad_%27Ali_Shah_with_Mirza_Mohammad_Ebrahim_Khan_the_Moavin_al-Dowleh_and_Company_One_of_274_Vintage_Photographs.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/AbbasMirza.gif

http://www.parstimes.com/images/amir_kabir_stamp.gif

http://darolqajar.com/wpimages/wp2e194d23_05.jpg

http://www.qajarpages.org/images/NezamiyehpanelSonsAbbasMirza.JPG

http://www.portalestoria.net/IMAGES%2059/QAJAR.gif

http://www.cultureofiran.com/images/pictures/46.jpg

http://storage.canalblog.com/05/45/119589/71767674_p.jpg

http://images.arcadja.com/ali_khan_ghulam-al_mulk_amin_al_sultan_atabeg_i_azam_~300~10000_20061011_1450512486_55.jpg

Some of these are incorrectly labelled as to the identities of the people depicted, but there is enough evidence in them for the purposes we are dealing with here.

Cheers,

James

Thanks for this information James. Absolutely fascinating and the mind boggles at the thought of a $75,000 "collectors' copy".

A salutary lesson about needing to know your subject area well.

In my humble opinion nobody should be even thinking of spending that kind of money without demanding a provenance. One could perhaps imagine that sought of price for a piece studded with diamonds and precious stones, but even then a provenance would be essential. Since these decorations were rarely awarded, and then to men of high position, providing it should not prove difficult. If the dealer sounds as if it is proving difficult, head for the exit!

Cheers,

James

James --

Thank you for the wealth of information. Your background on this topic is very impressive and helpful. Is it possible to get the references for your information? I like to further understand the history beyond this order.

I have a copies of the firmans or regulations for two of the reorganisations of the order. Apart from that, other more available references which you may like to try and find wherever you are located if you can. Alas, some of them may a little hard to access in the USA:

Cheers,

James

Hello James,

Thanks so much for your contributions to understanding of this order. It is great to get reliable information on this complex and confusing order. Are your copies of the Firmans in original form with Persian script or translations? It is my understanding that the original Firmans had beautiful illustrated paintings as well. Could you possibly post a copy of Persian Firman script or illustrations just to get the flavor? Just a portion or close up would be great.

Markus

Markus,

What I have is photocopies of the official translation into French. Not the original firmans.

Having said that, not all original firmans are illuminated or illustrated. A good many, the majority, are very simple handwritten letters although the paper is usually of good quality, the calligraphy superb and there is usually at least some decorative header or perhaps a border

Cheers,

James.