Persia - Order of the Lion and the Sun

[Markus]

Thanks Babar, good to know! So the one I have is Definetely not a Faiz Allah. Does the Mashashahi jewelery house translation still look good? Do you have the enamel painting on the front of this order to show the Faiz Allah style painting? This maker's mark is a beauty!

Edited February 2, 2012 by Markus

[g1usxs]

Markus -- Still the first two letters of Mashahshahi is questioable. I need to check with few people. It could be (Ya)shahshahi or (Na)shahshai. It is really hard to decipher.

I tried posting the image of enamel painting and the file was too large. I have to ask you later to post it for me. Thanks!!

[JapanX]

Here is an example of Faiz Allah hallmark:

Nice Babar! Thanks for showing this!!!

Got something nice and interesting too

Order of Lion and Sun, 5th class awarded to french captain A.Speltz from 85th Regt of Infantry 20th April 1874.

Unfortunately I don`t have a photo of the document (actually it is a certificate authorisation to wear this order issued by the Chancellery of the Legion D’Honneur on vellum with a coloured painting of the order).

But I have these nice pictures of the order

Nice looking makers mark!

Cheers mates,

Nick

Edited February 2, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Obverse

Edited February 2, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Reverse

[g1usxs]

Hi Nick..

Thank you for the image. THe one you are showing is exactly the same maker mark that Markus was refering to. We are still trying to decipher whether the maker is (Ya)shahshahi or (Na)shahshai or some derivative of that.

All an all, we have to add one additional persion maker to the list of persian manufacturers that Markus had put up earlier.

[JapanX]

THe one you are showing is exactly the same maker mark that Markus was refering to. We are still trying to decipher whether the maker is (Ya)shahshahi or (Na)shahshai or some derivative of that.

Yep, exactly like in post #12, but how different the lion appearance!!! Simply amazing. Every lion and sun order is unique.

And we know the first time coordinate for this maker

Cheers,

Nick

[Markus]

That Is the beauty of this order! The hand painted medallions were all done by different artists, reflecting the skill and taste of the individual artist. Even in some of the European made medals, the medallions will vary, depending on which artist created the medallion painting. I really like the early Persian made medallions for their sheer artistry. Thanks Babar & Nick for all your contributions.

Attached is the front of Faiz Allah medal from Babar's previous posting of Persian name plate.

Markus

Edited February 3, 2012 by Markus

[JapanX]

Remember this Babar?

James --

Thank you for the wealth of information. Your background on this topic is very impressive and helpful. Is it possible to get the references for your information? I like to further understand the history beyond this order.

Well I just found the real source of James "background".

Here it is

http://web.archive.org/web/20071102041611/http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/persia-orders.htm

Even the list of literature is the same (actually it is exactly the same!)

All posts of James with information about this order and its variations were created by simple operation "choose-copy-paste".

Even the color of these fragments are slightly different from ordinary typing color.

Hope you (and all our colleagues) will found this great source interesting.

It was created by Christopher Buyers in 2002 - 2007.

Regards,

Nick

Edited February 4, 2012 by JapanX

[James Hoard]

Remember this Babar?

Well I just found the real source of James "background".

Here it is

http://web.archive.o...rsia-orders.htm

Even the list of literature is the same (actually it is exactly the same!)

All posts of James with information about this order and its variations were created by simple operation "choose-copy-paste".

Even the color of these fragments are slightly different from ordinary typing color.

Hope you (and all our colleagues) will found this great source interesting.

It was created by Christopher Buyers in 2002 - 2007.

Regards,

Nick

Oh what wonderful "detective" work. Tell me. Did your "intelligence" reach far enough to prize you that Christopher Buyers and James are the same person?

James

[JapanX]

Oh what wonderful "detective" work. Tell me. Did your "intelligence" reach far enough to prize you that Christopher Buyers and James are the same person?

James

I really don't know James. It's not really a question of intelligence - it's a question of how many names one person actually have.

How do you think I can figure out who you actually are?

Especially if you have a habit to refer to yourself in the third person.

Post # 6 in http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/30705-please-id-persian-order/

[Markus]

AHHHHHHH! James and Nick! I really like the contributions from both of you and find these tit for tat posts unrewarding and sort of unprofessional. To me it doesn't much matter who the original source was, what matters is getting the information and history of these orders. I have received some great information, links and history from both of you. To quote Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

:unsure:

[James Hoard]

I really don't know James. It's not really a question of intelligence - it's a question of how many names one person actually have.

How do you think I can figure out who you actually are?

Especially if you have a habit to refer to yourself in the third person.

Post # 6 in http://gmic.co.uk/in...-persian-order/

Well, you came here all pleased as punch with yourself and with the sole object of trying to denegrate.

I can refer to myself any which way I like. That is none of your business one way or the other, any more than it is mine in regard to the aliases any other author may wish to use or, indeed you may wish to use on this forum or elsewhere.

[Markus]

First let me say that without James Hoard & Nicks contributions, I would have never seen the source articles for this post. The information sources were two papers by British Institute of Persian Studies, The Order of the Lion and Sun by Denis Wright and Sir John Malcolm and the Order of the Lion and Sun by Denis Wright. These were listed initially as sources by James Hoard and I owe Nick a huge thank you for forwarding the original articles to me.

The birth of the Persian Lion Sun Order started off as the Order of The Sun around 1807 modeled after the French Legion of Honor. Before this time the Persians did not have order medals and it is thought that the interaction with the Europeans created a desire and a need for an order medal. Napoleon I, French General Trézel, and French General Gardane were awarded the Order of the Sun by Persia featuring a rising sun. The black and white image attached shows the order of the Sun that was presented to Napoleon I. In 1908 Charles Maurice de Talleyrand, Former French Minister of Foreign Affairs, is honored by Persia with the same Order of the Sun, except Talleyrand’s order had depictions of the lion and sun together on both his badge and breast star.

In 1810 Sir John Malcolm of Great Britain receives a newly created order of the Lion and Sun for his efforts in building an alliance between Britain and Persia. At first the Shah wanted to honor Sir John Malcolm with the same order he had presented to the French General Gardane, the Order of the Sun. Sir John Malcolm refused to be awarded the Order of the Sun, since it would be unloyal and unbecoming to accept an award that had been instituted for the benefit of an enemy. It was suggested that a new order be instituted, resulting in the Order of the Lion and Sun being created by the court jeweler. The distinctions between the two orders were pressed on Sir John Malcolm and Sir John Malcolm acquiesced, gratefully accepting the new order of the Lion and Sun.

Early on in history, French publications and British publications differed in opinion as to the whether two separate orders existed, The Order of Lion and Sun and The Order of The Sun, or that both orders were simply different manifestations of the Order of Lion and Sun. After 1841, French publications no longer made distinctions between the two types of medals and called all the early issued medals Order of the Lion and Sun. However, other historians maintain that the orders were indeed two separate orders. So the Order of the Lion and Sun was greatly influenced by the interaction with and demands of European governments.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Markus

[Markus]

Sir John Kinneir Macdonald's Lion and Sun Order presented to him in 1828. It is most interesting to note that the Order of the Lion and Sun presented to Sir John Kinneir Macdonald contains prototype artwork also utilized later in Persia’s order of Aftab, an order founded in 1873 by Nasser al-Din Shah to award female sovereigns or consorts of reining rulers

Edited February 6, 2012 by Markus

[Markus]

Close up #1 Sir John Kinneir Macdonald's Lion and Sun Order presented in 1828.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Markus

[Markus]

Close up #2 Sir John Kinneir Macdonald's Lion and Sun Order presented in 1828.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Markus

[Markus]

Close up #3 Sir John Kinneir Macdonald's Lion and Sun Order presented in 1828.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Markus

[JapanX]

Well, you came here all pleased as punch with yourself and with the sole object of trying to denegrate.

I can refer to myself any which way I like. That is none of your business one way or the other, any more than it is mine in regard to the aliases any other author may wish to use or, indeed you may wish to use on this forum or elsewhere.

Of course I was happy, cause I found a really nice source of info - no doubt about it

And of course I was a little bit confused why you didn't mentioned it and used only small pieces of info.

Now it's clear why.

And of course you can refer to yourself any which way you like it James/Christopher/?.

I just don't understand why you are beside yourself with rage?

You should really control you temper and choose your words more carefully.

And I will help you with this task by saying adieu!

Edited February 4, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Sir Malcolm's Lion and Sun Order.

Great color images!

Thanks for posting them!

Cheers,

Nick

[g1usxs]

I am confused about one thing. In the "Royal Persian Paintings", it states that this order of lion and sun (One Nick posted #162) was singed by "Muhammad Jafar" and dated 1828. Then how can Sir Malcolm receive this in 1810? What am i missing? :speechless:

[Markus]

I am confused about one thing. In the "Royal Persian Paintings", it states that this order of lion and sun (One Nick posted #162) was singed by "Muhammad Jafar" and dated 1828. Then how can Sir Malcolm receive this in 1810? What am i missing?

Yes you are right Babar! I saw this order illustrated in the Sir John Malcolm article and didn't read the fine print attributing it to Sir John Kinneir Macdonald in 1828. Sorry my bad and good catch!

Markus

Edited February 6, 2012 by Markus

[James Hoard]

The birth of the Persian Lion Sun Order started off as the Order of The Sun around 1807 modeled after the French Legion of Honor. Before this time the Persians did not have order medals and it is thought that the interaction with the Europeans created a desire and a need for an order medal. Napoleon I, French General Trézel, and French General Gardane were awarded the Order of the Sun by Persia featuring a rising sun. The black and white image attached shows the order of the Sun that was presented to Napoleon I. In 1908 Charles Maurice de Talleyrand, Former French Minister of Foreign Affairs, is honored by Persia with the same Order of the Sun, except Talleyrand’s order had depictions of the lion and sun together on both his badge and breast star.

There is in fact slightly more detail on Telleyrand's order.

It seems that his insignia with the Lion and Sun was received after 1820/1826, by which time the Order of the Sun had ceased to be awarded. The Lion and Sun was probably a new award. Although, it is quite possible that due to the Napoleonic Wars his orginal insignia of the Order of the Sun may have never never actually been dispatched to him or was lost in transit.

It may be an idea when referring to recipients to use their full names, e.g. Sir John Malcolm not 'Sir Malcolm' and Sir John Kinnear Macdonald not 'Sir John Macdonald'. With an order that was bestowed in such great numbers, it may otherwise cause much confusion to the average reader.

Cheers,

James

[Markus]

There is in fact slightly more detail on Telleyrand's order.

It seems that his insignia with the Lion and Sun was received after 1820/1826, by which time the Order of the Sun had ceased to be awarded. The Lion and Sun was probably a new award. Although, it is quite possible that due to the Napoleonic Wars his orginal insignia of the Order of the Sun may have never never actually been dispatched to him or was lost in transit.

It may be an idea when referring to recipients to use their full names, e.g. Sir John Malcolm not 'Sir Malcolm' and Sir John Kinnear Macdonald not 'Sir John Macdonald'. With an order that was bestowed in such great numbers, it may otherwise cause much confusion to the average reader.

Cheers,

James

Very nice points James. I have changed my references to full names. So the later issuance of Talleyrand's order would be the reason his order contained both lion and sun. That fact supports the theory of two separate orders. So few of the Order of the Sun medals were awarded it seems.

Markus

[JapanX]

Something nice from Germany.

Codet, Berlin.

Siver, marked 800.

Size 110´65mm

Unfortunately no photo of reverse.