wlodzimierz

and reverse

Gentlemen,

we know that one of the constants in production of Yugoslavian OMDs was flexibility. Sometimes you can ask yourself if they sticked to guidelines. We know that there are some orders from one class which were converted to other class. And that there are updates which change appearance of order.

I want show you one piece, which was described already in Mr. Velitsko's book. As far I know there are no pictures of this order at all.

Anatoly and me had discussion about this order, now after I got better images I think that it is very rare type and the last one.

If you look at reverse you will find normal reverse for 2nd class order made after 1985 from gilded tombac. You will see even 'fresh' revets.

On averse you can see in the middle a ring with white stones which was used in 1st class order. If you look closely you will find that this ring is not 'converted' from 2nd class. The ring with white stones seems to be genuine with holes in metal below stones.

Mr.Velitschko states that this type exists without details. If you look at reverse of normal 1st class you will find holes below rubies (this is normal). If you want to use enamel and you have holes in metal you would loose enamel after it would turn into liquid state. I think that in order to solve this problem they used existing parts of 2nd class.

I don't think that it is fake or home made. It would make no sense to make a new order which generate many questions. It is easier to sell a good 'copy' of rare existing and well known order as to sell a new type of order where you have to explain that this type realy exists. Thats why I think that this order is real one.

what is you opinion?

hier is averse:

later decorations were hallmarked with IKOM as you can see on this images.

I saw IKOM hallmark on decorations with s/n as low as 16xxx.

Gentlemen,

hier is maybe better image:

Gentlemen,

this decoration has number 11193, has screw with name IKOM Zagreb and hallmark BK.

Who made it?

the answer still the same: this decoration was made in factory which before 1945 was named Braca Knaus and after nationalisation IKOM.

This was one of highest order in Yugoslavia with privileges comparable with those of Order of National Hero.

This order was produced 1945 using existing machines in factory of Braca Knaus with hallmark of BK after nationalisation the new IKOM screw was added or replace old one (shown above).

Take a look:

The fact that you can not see BK hallmark on this particular decoration doesn?t mean anything.

We know that even not all IKOM made order have IKOM hallmarks. On many tombac made orders, especially between 1981 and 1985 there are no hallmarks. The existence or non existence of hallmark on YU orders can have many reasons. Sometimes, we can not find proper explanation yet.

I saw following order:

There is name IKOM on screw. The number on reverse is relatively high in comparison with the order posted earlier but there is BK hallmark ?Brother Knaus?. Now we know that decoration with s/n 8xxx was made by BK. And the answer to the question who was first is simple. BK was nationalized in 1945/46 and merged with other manufacturer into IKOM.

It lead us to the conclusion that if one decoration with s/n 8xxx was made by BK than a decoration with lower s/n 962 could only be made by BK.

Maybe BK stands for "Vojna kontrola / military control" (in chirilic alphabet)?

Yes you are right, and IKOM stands for International Kingdom Of Medals (in latine alphabet)

Bryan,

the story of this badge is not yet discovered. If it is anniversary badge and grandvater of member of our forum Jakov was participant of Oct. Revolution 1917 than he should be awarded with this badge as well. He got anniversary medal in 1967. But Jakov doesn't know this badge.

Ranko has made his best guess but he is not sure.

Maybe, after he will find documents concerning awarding with anniversary medal we will lern more.

waldemar

Gentelmen,

I asked some experts for their opinion about this badge. Today I got an email from Mr. Ranko Mandic who send me following opinion:

'Regarding rare badge for the Yugoslav participants in the October Revolution: There are none of the written sources about it, just some unofficial opinions. After my small investigation, I would accept the following opinion:

According to the style, especially reverse, it definitely seems that it was made by IKOM - Zagreb, not in Moscow. Time of issue would be just after the war, in 1947, on the occasion of the 30th Anniversary of the October Revolution. Therefore it is so rare, and the story about its distribution to the "still alive" Yugoslav participants of that revolution is widely accepted.'

waldemar

Great Luka, thank you for sharing.

On ther right side there is SUBNOR badge and the badge above?

regards

waldemar

Welcome on board Jakov. We would be happy to see these pictures.

There is another thread concerning Badge of Yugoslovian Participants of October Revolution 1917. Have you seen this Badge Jakov?

best regards

waldemar

Great Anatoly,

you have even ribbon, it is hard to find as well.

best regards

waldemar

Why is it not true?

regards

waldemar

Thank you Bryan,

It was hard to find it, box is more difficult to find as order itself. This Spomenica was made by Brother Knaus in second half 1945, you can see screw is without mint's name.

I'm sure that you will find your cased spomenica, should I see one I send you PM.

best regards

waldemar

and box

Reverse

The eldest decoration of New Yugoslavia is partisan decoration 1941. First drawn created in Jajce by painter Djorde Andrejevic Kun and sculptor Antun Augustinicic. This decoration was created as a very important Order. Partisanska Spomenica 1941 even in 1945 was confirmed as an order. The bearer of this decoration had similiar benefits as bearer of Order of National Hero.

This type replaced the earlier type of this decoration.

With the time order become commemorative decoration with privileges for bearer and his children.

Anatoly could you post reverse of both orders?

Can we see difference there?

best regards

waldemar

Bryan your order and box are consistent. This is 2nd class in 2nd class box.

I commented those other posting where 3rd class order is presented in second class box.

To correct my mistake: on March 15, 1961 and not 1963 the name of order was changed.

The name of order 'Order for National Merit 2nd class' was changed on March 15, 1961 to 'Order for National Merit with Silver Rays'.

Interesting is fact, that appearance of this order was 'somhow' changed in latest order you will see fighter made from yellow metal, earlier was black.

best regards

waldemar

It must be mistake, this box is for 2nd class order after 1963.

The correct 3rd class box has name "ORDEN ZASLUGE ZA NAROD SA SREBRNOM ZVEZDOM".

Great Anatoly,

you surprise us always.

Are both orders from Silver?

I looked yesterday at Order of National Merits and found out that there is hallmark which I couldn't identify.

This is the same hallmark on your image, bottom left. I've never seen these other hallmarks.

best regards

waldemar

Thank you Bryan,

you are right. Another screw used but not mentioned is the first screw made by 'Brother Knaus' in Zagreb. This is screw you can find on first order of Brotherhood and Unity 1st class, second type of Spomenica 1941, Order of National Liberation. First order were produced in second half of 1945.

IKOM was created in 1945 from Brother Knaus, 'Sorilini i Krivak' and some other small producers.

I think that the first IKOM screw (where IKOM as name is placed on screw) was I1.

best regards

waldemar

Gentlemen,

there are some additional information concerning SUBNOR but my croatian is not very well.

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUBNOR

A DESK PLAQUE OF THE WWII VETERANS (SUBNOR) ORGANISATION (1941 - 1945):

Gentlemen,

there is an image with all "nuts" I identified till now (with exception of Subnor screw). On the left side you will find manufacturer and above type. You can see, I1, I2, I3, I4 = all IKOM nuts, similiar Z1,Z.. = for ZIN/ZNB.

Based on Order for National Merits 3rd class (mass order)

I found out screws to following s/n:

IKOM

s/n=type

1643=I1

34415=I2

99465=I1

58842=I2 (awarded in 1947)

59335=I2

44740=I2

60925=I2

108815=I3

118815=I3

118901=I3

130646=pin back

1. I1 is below #1643

2.Nut type I1 was changed to I2 between #1643 and #34415

3.Nut type I2 was changed to I3 between #60925 and #118901 (switch in 1947 or 1948)

4.I1 with s/n 99465 is strange.

ZIN/ZNB

s/n=type

72101=Z1

75489=Z1

80958=Z2

1.Below #72101 we have Z1

2.Switch from Z1 to Z2 took place between #72101 and 75489

If you look at your orders and post your data with and maybe date when this order was awarded than we will have better filling about YU OMD.

thank you

waldemar

Gentlemen,

probably not very rare badge of SUBNOR = Savez udru?enja boraca Narodnooslobodilačkog rata Jugoslavije.

SUBNOR was founded on September 30th, 1947 as a social-political organization for veterans of National Liberation Struggle.