Richard Gordon

I'm surprised by that. Only today I saw a program that stated the Leopard2 was one of the best battle tanks around today. So much so that the Abrams uses the same 120mm gun!

Rich

I always thought that there must be some relationship between the firms of Berg & Nolte and Assmann as their pilot badge eagles are strikingly similar.

So I thought I'd get them out and do a comparison. I see now that there are certainly not the same eagle and the only general design is the same. Maybe the same artisan was used to make the dies for the 2 companies?

It's not often these 2 get out so might as well post while here.

What's your feeling? Do you see any evidence in their other badges that points to a relationship between the 2 companies?

Rich

Thanks Jan Arne!

PS ! Wounder when I should find that Pilotbadge from Deumer ????

Well with your luck I'm sure it will not be very long before you find it!

Rich

Jan

Don't know how you do it but you can turn up some really nice stuff and on a fairly regular basis! There must be good money in electrics!!

Rich

J W-T,

Have to agree with Jan... not that common.

Hey! Look...SNAP!!

Rich

I bought to this from Bill Shea.He is very nice dealer! a little expencive..Wahahah.

Oh yeah! Aint that the truth!

Rich

Nice display. Is this something you have put together yourself or are the awards attributed to anyone?

Rich

As promised:

My pilot = 28.9g

Wreath 53.2H x 41.5W

Eagle 64.9W

Swastika 11.4

Stan

I'll dig out my pilot badge when I get home and will post it's dimensions and weight. In the meantime, I hope others will too.

If these check out, where does that leave you?

Rich

Obviously coming in a bit late on this one but I think the badge is good but the rivets give me enough concern that I wouldn't buy it myself. I can't pass opinion on the finish because I do not have a Juncker P/O to compare with.

With the messed rivets I would be worried that it could be an 'upgraded' pilot badge.

I would agree that measurements and weights are definitely needed to dispell the belief it is a casting (which I also believe it is not).

Rich

I think ultimately tarnished is best and usually this give nice contrast to the ribbed portion of the frame. However, I wouldn't turn down a nice example just because it was shiney and clean.

Rich

Chris

It's a beauty! That what I love about the 1914 EK1...so much variation and sometimes more like jewellery!

Rich

This is based upon the presumption that PK numbers were not applied until 1944, which seems to be a growing trend amongst collectors although I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that these numbers were not applied by firms earlier than 1944.

This is indeed the grey area. If there was evidence when those codes were applied then it would be incredibly useful!

However, your timeline seems reasonable: 800-marked pieces from 1939-on, L/12-marked pieces for a few months in 1941 with 2-marked pieces appearing later on. Don't forget unmarked pieces, made of silver and iron and all those illicit non-silver and iron crosses.

Actually, I was assuming the timeline was:

Neusilber/non-magnetic -> (L/12 '800') & '800' -> '800' -> ('2' '800')

but '800' could also pre-date L/12 so maybe it is:

Neusilber/non-magnetic -> '800' -> (L/12 '800') or '800' -> '800'-> ('2' '800') ?

Thanks for that link Peter. I too hope more information can be provided.

If I am understanding what has already been written, then L/12 RK could only have been produced in 1941. If the '2' markings did not come into existence until 1944 (I am assumming for RK's but would prefer to be corrected) then '800' only marked Junckers are between the L/12 and the '2' marked RK's.

Would you (or anyone else) agree?

Rich

A question on the L/12. From some examples I have seen atributed, L/12 can be found awarded as early as July 1941. This seems to tie in with the creation of the LDO?

At what time would would L/12 marked RK's ceased to have been marked L/12 and when would the '2' marking have come into existence?

Are there differences other than the marking between L/12's and '2' RK's?

I always find this change over confusing so if it could be clarifed for me it would be appreciated.

Rich

Some more details.

Not shown here before by me but now why not!

This rather mint example, is heavily tarnished and marked 800 L/12.

Some photos to follow:

J T-W has started a good subject here and it is one that will be useful to many. Hopefully more details can be added as it progessses.

Dave, would it be at all possible for you provide better pictures of your badge?It would be beneficial to see the detail on it and to highlight areas that show the casting effect.

Rich

Eric

Nice variation for your collection. Condition seems excellent!

Rich

Looks to be an original GWL and with the original case in the style typical for GWL. Addional pictures would be nice!

Rich

The bordfunker badge looks good. Typical features for Assmann. A picture of the back would confirm.

Rich

Yes, unfortunatley a reproduction.

Do you have dealers in Japan or do you buy from Europe/US?

Rich

This thread has wandered a bit!!

I have to agree with John, I do not believe the badge is original but a casting where an original Deumer was used for the master mold. You can see the out-line of the wreath is the same and the overal details are Deumer but the quality and finish, rivets, hinge, etc are not.

A very interesting comparison made by J T-W between Derumer and Juncker. You can see the styles are similar yet the badges are different. You can see the early style wreath clearly differ especially at the bottom (Deumer is flatter) and the eagles have different details. I would say during this period it is clear Deumer and Juncker were independent but perhaps used the same die cutter.

Rich

Gordon

It's so hard to tell based on such an image. Perhaps it would help if you could add a pic of S&L oaks at the same angle and see how the image compares?

I would benefit from learning more about S&L Oaks and their life pre-May 1945 and it's not a subject that has been approached in much detail.

Do you know who the recipient is in the photo you are using and the date being awarded the oakleaves?

Rich