Panzerpionier

Thank You, Fran!!! I hope to learn more than I already know. One can never learn too much.

Doc

Welcome to our "VERY tight fraternity". Next time you plan to buy a book about LC, please feel free to ask. I am sure we would give you our humble advice three, four or even one hundred times, but we will not shot you in flames for your selection. But of course you are free to take our advice or not, and to make comments about us in other forums.

http://www.militariacollecting.com/index.p...ic=26030&st=120

Hello Juan,

I just added these to my referrence library. Jurado's book was added simply for the quality of the pictures and the color plates.

All the Best,

Doc

There are some mistakes on those plates. For example, the "Cruz de Guerra" (War Cross) breast plate sunburst should be matte silver instead of gilt.

Pictures are interesting indeed, but I already have seen all of them in other books.

Best regards

Juan,

Thanks for inspiring me to add to my LC & SCW library. I ordered this book by Osprey publishing because of the quality of the pictures and color plates.

Doc

Hello Doc

Elstob's and Caballero Jurado's are far from being the best sources on the subject, but they are cheap anyway.

Best regards

The following red breast star is being offered in Ebay as a item worn by LC personnel. That is not possible just because that cross has been made according to 2003-regulations (center disc, crown)...

Anyway, no red breast stars were awarded to LC personnel for SCW service.

It is my understanding that the red/white is the same distinction as between the German WW2 Iron Cross/War Merit CrossX-- "bravery" versus "war merit."

That is almost correct...

White crosses were awarded for meritorious PEACETIME service, and had different classes according to the recipient's rank: High ranking officers received breast stars, junior officers received white enamelled crosses hanging from a ribbon and enlisted men received the same crosses but without enamel.

Red crosses were awarded for WARTIME service, and until the start of the SCW they had too different classes according to the recipient's rank. But after the outbreak of the war the Nationalist side established a unique class for all ranks: a red enamelled cross hanging from a ribbon. Red breast stars were not awarded for SCW service. They were reintroduced after the war.

On the other hand, although being PEACETIME awards, white crosses could be awarded for meritorious wartime service not related to combats. AFAIK German War Merit crosses were wartime-only awards.

Some books from my collection (period and modern):

From left to right:

First row:

-Herrmann, Hajo: "Eagle's Wings: The Autobiography of a Luftwaffe Pilot".

-Merkes, Manfred: " Die deutsche Politik gegen?ber dem spanischen B?rgerkrieg 1936 - 1939" (in German).

-Proctor, Raymond L.: "Hitler's Luftwaffe in the Spanish Civil War".

-Vi?as, Angel: "Guerra, dinero, dictadura : ayuda fascista y autarqu?a en la Espa?a de Franco " (in Spanish)

-von Oven, Wilfred: "Hitler und der Spanische B?rgerkrieg: Mission und Schicksal der Legion Condor" (in German).

-Arias, Raul: "La Legi?n C?ndor. Im?genes in?ditas para su historia" (in Spanish).

-Laureau, Patrick: "Condor : The Luftwaffe in Spain 1936-1939".

Second row:

-Molina Franco, Lucas: "Los hombres de von Thoma" (in Spanish)

-Bender, Roger James: "Legion Condor - Uniforms, Organization & History"

-Hidalgo Salazar, Ramon "La ayuda alemana a Espa?a" (in Spanish)

-Vi?as, Angel: "Guerra, dinero, dictadura" (in Spanish)

-Keding, Karl: "Feldgeistlicher bei Legion Condor" (in German)

-"Jahrbuch der deutschen Luftwaffe - 1940" (in German)

-Laureau, Patrick and Fernandez, Jose: "La Legion Condor" (In French)

-Lobsien, Richard: "Legion Condor - Sie flogen jenseits den Grenzen" (in German).

Third row:

-"Deutsche k?mpften in Spanien" (in German)

-Kohler, Klaus: "Kriegsfreiwilliger 1937" (in German)

-Stache, Rudolf: "Armee mit geheimem Auftrag" (in German)

-von Forell, Fritz: "M?lders und seine M?nner" (in German)

-Graf von Hoyos, Max "Pedros y Pablos: Fliegen, Erleben, K?mpfen in Spanien" (in German)

-Bley, Wulf: "Das Buch der Spanienflieger" (in German)

-Kropp, Albert: "So k?mften deutschen Soldaten" (in German)

Fourth row:

-F?hring, Hellmut H.: "Wir funken f?r Franco" (in German)

-F?z?, Fosef: "Freie Jagd von Madrid bis Moskau" (in German).

-Beumelburg, Werner: "Kampf um Spanien" (in German).

-Trautloft, Hannes: "Als Jagdflieger in Spanien" (in German).

-Lent, Alfred: "Wir k?mpften f?r Spanien" (in German).

-Riess, Karl and Ring, Hans: "Legion Condor: History of the Luftwaffe in the Spanish Civil War"

-Mombeek, Eric: "Jagdwaffe: The Spanish Civil War"

-Arraez Cerda, Juan: "Los cazadores de la Legion Condor" (in Spanish)

Correct me please, but is this the correct crown associated with SCW-period badges? (best pic I gould get - I had to scale the picture way down to meet posting criteria).

Thanks.

Scott

Yes, indeed.

Back

Those are observer's wings. Republican wings had a red star above the central disc, not on it, just like this:

Hi

Why where these Spanish awards made by German firms.

Were they often made by German factorys

They were made as replacements for those German soldiers whose Spanish decorations got either lost or damaged.

Does somebody own a LC overseas cap and would accept to share it with us ?

Here is an illustration for a private and an officer using LC particular cap, and a general using a spanish one.

Richthofen's cap (right side) is not actually a Spanish one, but a taylor-made cap, Spanish style, probably made by a Spanish taylor with LC-brown fabric.

Best regards

My comments:

-J Temple-West's War Cross is a very nice one. Surely it was made post-1939 (Madrid was in republican hands until the end of the SCW) for a Spanish soldier that got TWO crosses... therefore the additional plate. Note that AFAIK no German soldier received more than one War Cross for SCW service. On the other hand, plates showing additional awardings of the War Cross were introduced in 1940 - the medal could be a post-1940 item or it was "retrofitted" with the plate.

-About pensioned crosses: Some Spanish award had two classes: honour award and pensioned award. Pensioned awards were a higher class and included a "pension" or bonus to the soldier salary, and had some distinctive features showing their higher status. The pensioned (white bars) Red Military Merit breast star posted is a post-1939 item and was not awarded to LC personnel.

-The White Aeronautical Merit breast star sold in Ebay is a post-1945 item and was never awarded to LC personnel.

Best regards

MichaW, that is impressive - what a document. I have a large book called Condecoraciones Espanolas By Gomez that has a whole line of fantastic photos seperated by tissue. The photos and book are of the same quality and style as your document. Great Document and Cross.

Actually the author's FIRST surname is "Fernandez de la Puente". "Gomez" was his SECOND surname... we have TWO surnames in Spain (one from our father and another from our mother).

That book sells for about US$ 1000. Nice plates but heavily retouched.

Was it such easy ????

No, he was certainly appointed to a LW combat unit as administrative and thus got the swords class. Or he was not yet administrative at the time of his turn in Spain.

jacques

Perhaps he was wounded in Spain and therefore transferred to administrative duties... note black wound badge.

Best regards

J Temple is at the origin of this thread, thanks to him !

unfortunatly I do not have a pic of all the recipients, but I hope that somebody do !

Here is Haro HARDER, blurry pic from a period book. May be here is a better one somewhere

Have a search at Riess&Ring's book index... there are at least two good pictures of him. I would scan them if I had scanner.

Best regards

Don't worry SAL, the doc is OK. Several writing do exist on these very documents for wounded, with spanish rank or german rank. I hope you are still chatting on MSn while I write this.

Ok, if Jacques says that there are documents with German ranks, it must be true.

I hope Jacques answered before Sal had read my post. Otherwise, I hope I did not scare you, Sal!

Best regards

Just a little thing... perhaps I am wrong, but every Spanish document I have seen shows the recipient's Spanish rank...

This forum can easily room extra 36-39 period Spanish topics such this one or Spanish volunteers in Russia.

jacques

In my opinion, Spanish militaria outside the SCW era should be discussed in the Orders, Medals & Decorations of Belgium, France and other European Nations forum. Although Spain was not actually an axis nation, Blue Division should be discussed in the Axis Forces Militaria & History forum.

Best regards

Panzerpionier,

There is none.

Steve

I mistook the base of the missing catch at six o'clock for a rectangular manufacturer's mark.

Cejalvo was a Spanish medal maker of high renown. His medals were of the highest quality.

Alfonso XIII was the king of Spain between 1902 and 1931. Therefore that medal qualifies as a pre-SCW award, although recipients that fought for the Nationalist side were allowed to continue wearing it. The use of pre-1936 awards was forbidden for professional soldiers that fought for the Republican side.

Best regards

@Panzerpionier, Here is the worn mark for the jeweler on the inside of the case.

Thank you very much, but I meant manufacturer's mark on the reverse of the medal.

Best regards

Fine cross, but the crown doens't macht with spanish civil war era. It could be more 1700-1933 or 1975-today. I think it is a pre-1933 cross.

Nevertheless beautiful and cased.

jacques

Jacques is right. It is a pre-1930's medal. Post-1975 stars have a similar design but size is smaller and quality is very poor.

Steve, could you post close-up views of manufacturer's marks?

Best regards

To clarify, ". . . the Spanish nationalist/fascist ex-combattants . . . ." Obviously not for the republican/loyalist forces.

Obviously republican ex-combatants would not wear the five arrows of their enemies...

This badge was actually that of the "Hermandad Nacional de Excombatientes", "National Brotherhood of Ex-combatants". Obviously the nationalists did not care about their defeated enemies.

You see them on ebay a lot and they look a little crude. There seem to be quite a veriaty of them and I think they were made post SCW too. Maybe Panzerpioneer could give us a breakdown on what they were issued for and when?

Best, Sal

First badge is a Falange party lapel badge, and nothing more.

Second badge was that of the Spanish ex-combatants of the SCW.

The back.

I am not sure: Does #2 (Spanish MVO) indicate an officer?

First, that medal was the same for all ranks.

Second, perhaps it was a custom in your country to name national military awards with German names, but in Spain the correct name of that medal was (and still is) "Cruz Roja del M?rito Militar", and not "Milit?rverdienstorden".

Just my 2 cents.

Like this ?

It should be a very sad thing to wear a medal that says "my son was killed".

Best regards

others

My friend, these badges did not belong to Condor Legion... they were actually from Spanish-manned units.

Best regards