hipnos

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Thanks

Miguel

Gentlemen...I?ve just received this Bar, but I had a very bad feeling on it...Th last ribbon soiled?, but no the others...The thinnest of the bravery medals..., their patina, the bright Newbrand device for bearing the bar...

I need a opinion, please...

thanks beforehand

Miguel

Statutes do not authorize this insignia form. Petrov, Denkov and Paprikoff report the St. Alexander "Hessian duke or strawberry leaf" suspension crown changed to the Bulgarian czarist form in 1900 (or 1908 at the latest, this not clear whether due to use of stocks of old type insignia or statutory change) when the Civil Merit Order suspension crown took that form in 1900 and Military Merit Order insignia was created with a czarist crown. Ferdinand instituted green enamel commander crosses, these same 'authorities' state, in 1908 or more likely in 1912.

Several pieces of Bulgarian insignia exist with what are obviously switched crowns. Early St. Alex suspension crowns are seen on lst type Civil Merit commanders and the Prague castle collection has a Military Merit commander with an early St. Alex crown. Another Military Merit commander has a first type Civil Merit suspension crown held on with a bent steel sewing pin. These usually have botched or deformed links between the main badge and crown. Sometimes plain rings replace the link. In the 1970s, these were sold as "proto-types" but the idea that anything with less than a perfect finish would be shown to someone like Ferdinand is just plain crazy.

It appears that the illustrated example has a slightly deformed link between the crown and cross, the link's upper left obverse side seems rough. This would not be a normal place for such wear and, especially if tool marks are visible, suggests a crown switch. (This suspension crown appears to be Austrian made {1890s contemporary Rothe most likely} rather than French or Russian. The badge may be 1930s German or Bulgarian manufacture. The suspension is most probably silver-gilt---this badge looks to be silver-gilt as well but if it is bronze-gilt that would be another clear indication of a switch.)

These suspension-badge links on most Bulgarian insignia were simply bent together especially for the St. Alexander Order as it made selection of the 2 possible suspension varients at that precise point simple. This makes switching crown easier than if the links had been brazed together.

Also, some insignia was taken apart and used as jewellery. This was not like the purpose-made "CORO" type manufactured costume jewellery based on French colonial and Romanain order insignia but rather actual pieces turned to another use. Later someone may have wished to "restore" insignia without realizing the statutory requirements.

Besides this type switch, in the last 10 years or so Bulgarian St. Alex, Civil and Military Merit orders of late kingdom/czarist type, especially commander and officer grades, have appeared with republic suspension wreaths replacing their crowns. Besides sloppy or deformed links, the give-away is use of a cast suspension wreath rather than a struck one and sometimes failure to remove the crown on the lion (reverse of Civil & Military Merit and lst class St. Alex badges).

I?ve read the book of Todor Petrov, and, as you say, I?ve not find any badge like this...I?ve think about the crown switch as a possibility. Thanks fot your lecture

Miguel

PS/ In a close look, I?ve not detected any damage to the suspension, but I?ll retry with a magnifier....

Hello Zowen,

London-made and on the 1st type ribbon is extremely rare !!! Can't even begin to think about a price for it ... Thank you for showing it !

Hendrik

Hello Hendrik...first time I?ve see this ribbon (I Think of a non regulation ribbon, when I?ve see this time...)

Greetings to all of you

Miguel

Your very own Order for Cultural Merit.

Congratulations for your collection.

Splendid collection...I?ve not so high classes orders...and no so many boxes

A Michel Bravery cross, and a Ferdinand order (I wish to got one too)...are prominently missed

Greetings again for your collection...and thanks fot your pretty pics...

Miguel

Dear Bryan,

you have an excellent YU-collection - much better, than my own one .

Looking for a documented & researched Lenin-screwback (military!) + a documented & researched Nevsky type 2 (maybe both in a group ) you will have the choice: Either a well-preserved second-hand Porsche, or these two items .

But the FoN - even documented ones - is still rather moderate priced and that order IS a beauty .

Best regards

BTW: I have neither a Porsche, nor a Lenin-screwback .

As you correctly suposse...the hammer with thw RBO2, goes to....2400USD!!!, the winning bidder has only a feedback of 26...a newcomer!

Miguel

So... More Bulgarian medals

Civil Merit officer

Ferdinand ascesion to the throne 1st class

Miguel

I used to have a couple of good sources for Bulgarian but the supply has diminished. I've never seen a Bulgarian only bar. I thought Bulgarians mounted their medals like the Austrians.

So... More Bulgarian medals

A miniature, from Officer?s associaciation badge (like the bravery cross)

Indeed

Atlantis...??

Miguel

Another ribbon bars

That?s the bar in question...

Miguel

Another ribbon bars

Hello!! Greetings. This is my field of interest too!!!

There are very intersting, I?ve noted that?s very difficult to find "Bulgaria only" medals?s bars

Yo can see a litte Bulgarian bar I?ve in "Mi coleccion", at the albuns or showcase...(i think)

Please in the square bar, what do you think are the medals that must be hanged (green plain ribbon??...), and the last Military merit, of course...

Thanks

Miguel

Alas, the Pakistan Independence Medal could not have been worn first, from Pakistan's independence in 1947 on several grounds. First and foremost, the medal wasn't instituted until 1950.

So, Do you mean that my bar is incorrectly mounted???

regards

Miguel

And

O. NO. 630129 COOK U. BAKSH

1- General Service Medal: Kacch 1965

2- War Star 1965

3- War Star 1971

4- Campaign Medal 1965

5- Campaign Medal 1971

6- Quaid-i-Azam Centennial

7- 1400 Hijra Medal

8- Oman, Peace Medal

Only the Istar-i-Herb 1385 / War Star 1385 [A.H. = 1965 C.E.] is named, as shown above. Very ragged mount, a tattered tailor's lable on reverse, so probably halal.

In My Group (The 16 punjab regiment too!!!)

1.-General service medal Bar Kashmir 1948

2.- Pakistan March 23th. 1956 Commemorative medal

3.-The independence medal: 3834417 HAV(ildar) RASHID AHMED 16 PBR

4.-The India service medal. (Bars Northwest frontier 1937-39 and 1936-37):10379 Sepoy RASHID AHMED 3-16 PUNJAB R

5.- WWII General service star 1939-1945

6.- WWII Burma Star

7.-Service medal 1939-45(Unnamed)

8.- India service medal 1939-45 (Unnamed)

It takes some consistency...Itsn?t??

Regards

Miguel

Hi Miguel,

Looks like this fellow mounted his medals to the best of his financial abilities. Still, I am sure he wore them with pride.

Cheers

Brian

That?s for sure!!!

Miguel

When I say makeshit...I weight my words....

The reverse

Miguel

Hello Everyone,

For a long time now I have wanted to try my hand at court mounting a group of medals. My first project is a group of medals named to 1220812 NK. TALIB HUSSAIN R.P.A.. The group included the Pakistan Independence Medal, 1939-45 Star, the Burma Star and the India Service Medal. These were all named. The 1939-45 Medal was missing when I purchased them. There were some naming problems with this group and it was felt over on the SAGONGS web site that this was probably due to them being self-named during the period (not long after the fact for the e$cam). You can check out the discussion on SAGONGS if you are interested but the general consensus was that this was a genuine group issued to the recipient named. As far as I am concerned that is good enough for this collector.

If anyone is intetrested in the method of mounting, I used three pieces of buckram glued together for the "base" covered with black broad cloth. Buckram is a stiff material used for curtain backing and to stiffen things like collars etc. You can get it where they sell curtain and fabric materials. I used the black material as it covers the exposed ends of the white buckram that would show after the medals were mounted. I didn't like the idea of using black marker and the black material also hides any spaces between the ribbons, if there were any that would show. A white line of material exposed between the medal ribbons would look terrible. You can buy black buchram but I couldn't find any in our area. The exta material of the black cloth also makes the mount a bit stiffer. Once the medals were mounted I sewed them down using "Invisable" thread made of nylon. Sewing through four layers of cloth was not very easy but I think easier than trying to shove a needle through cardboard or plastic.

The back is covered with a piece of red felt. I didn't try to affix a pin device as the mount will reside in my medals cabinet and, of course, never be worn. As I said this was my first attempt at court mounting and I hope you like it.

Cheers

Brian

Here you have a makeshift bar (as is..) named to hav. Rashid Ahmed, 16 Punjab Rifles...regards

Miguel

PS/ It seems that the campaign stars are added later...obviusly, there are no space for this pair...

What do you think. I?m bidding now for this Bar at eBay...

Thanks beforehand

Miguel

Thanks wild card, that's the kind of info we need in this thread!! good to hear the MVO and MVKs are covered!!

Will make a summary of the info we have so far when I have time, which will probably not be today.

all the best

David

David, Please take note of my book list: Lippe detmold, sachsen, wurtemberg, bavaria?? ; if this is possible...for a begining. I?ll pay with Paypal (as you?ll to explain me).

Thanks for the hard work

PS/ Rudolstadt Sonderhausen???

Not a Signum Laudis-- Germans did not get those.

There are no clues as to RANK with this combination, making it difficult to guess. You'd have to try various things and see what hangs most level from that spot.

It's in the wrong post-1938 precedence-- after Anschluss any Austrian WW1 decorations should come before the Hindenburg Cross, suggesting that whatever it was, the wearer did not value very highly.

I don?t know the signum laudis was not for the germans...it?s because it was a "touch of steem" from the Austrian monarch to austrian subjects???

Miguel

I think he tried this one... but I forget the results

Excuse me lads (I?ve starry eyes after all thes bars...shinning), Why this Oldemburg order in a 7th place...Why the hanseatic cross has preference??

Thanks

Miguel

I rather agree with Rick about that un-identified award suspended to a crown. It could very well be a Second Empire (1852-1870) Legion of honor with its normal crown. That was the reason I mentioned France as one of the foreign countries who had bestowed awards on this gentleman.

I also like the idea of a Military band leader who would have made his way to the top. Possibly the Hofkapellemeister. The Second class of the Iron Crown was a prominent award, which certainly would have gone to a outstanding person in his profession making the top level close to the Sovereign's eye. It then would be a civilian award which fits with the white tie.

All this, of course, is pure guesswork. But rather fun, I would say.

Regards

Veteran

I think that Piramida could be accurate...a St. gregory, vatican order is very possible

Very good Ivan...

Miguel

Hi

I just get this ty?cal German bar. Only the Austrian award is missing.

Which award was on this bar? As you can see the small hook is placed close to the top of the bar: 5cm betwwen this hook and the bottom of the German "Hindenbourg" Cross. So, it was for a Signum Laudis? I don't think so. A Verdienst Kreuz? Possible, but I am not sure.

What do you think about?

As it comes with a Bravery-war ribbon, and at this hook situation: It could be. a Big silver Bravery medal (Franz-Joseph or Karl), and why not a Signum laudis (by the crown), gold/silver and FJ /Karl. I don?t think on a Military VerdienstCross for its size

Greetings

Miguel

Hello

I have had this medal in a drawer for a few years now. I bought it at a antiques market, because it was cheap. I know nothing about spanish medals, and I would like to know if you think it is an original, or a reproduction. If it is original, I would very much like to know, if germans allso got this type of victory medal. I would really apreciate your opinions on this one.

Snoopy

More exactly the obverse read. "july 18 th 1936, Upraising" and the reverse. "April 1, 1939 victory"; The dates from the beginning of the spanish civil war and of his end... I think is a real medal, but not a rare item, in bronze...

regards

Miguel

Miguel,

It looks good to me; I tend to think that it is genuine.

If you can, for confirmation, please post hi-res scans of the front (central area with round wreath, and cartouche and surroundings) and the back (mintmark, S/N and cartouche).

Marc

a close up...

Miguel

Miguel,

I don't think that you have to apologize for anything. Collecting is a private matter, and a matter of private, personal choices. To some, it is hunting down the thinest sub-sub-sub-variety, to others, it is the history, to others yet, it will be god knows what. One is obviously free think that he'd do things differently if s/he owned a specific piece.

I seem to detect a hint of animosity toward "clean order collectors", in this thread in particular, but in quite a few other areas of this forum too. I personally regret this fact since, IMHO, there is no right or wrong way of collecting, there are simply different and various ways to do so, each of them aimed at bringing a collector the specific type of enjoyment he is seeking.

Marc

Not Any hint of animosity, but the feeling that I?ve for a lot of time collecting on my own, outside any forum and in a desert like surroundings...(Not specially easy to collect here, in Spain, and in Valencia in particular...One thiNk thaT nothing of this world exist outside of Madrid and Barcelona...). So The world internet open before my hungry eyes was of a world of plenty...So, possibly, I was something of acritical in my first buys of medals&orders, and after this I?ll try to focus more...but the scarcity of informations, and Books and the unknowledge of other forums...are very harming to my line of collect...

You know some greedy interest to find something in your own field of interest, but no possibility to pause and take time for the studying of the piece in question.

So find this forum both stimulating and awesome...in the wide of my pretty locked things. Well I?ll pest you with questions till you wish I collect beefcans...

Regards

Miguel

a close up...