dwmosher

Joe:

Your slip-on boards do not go with the tunic. The underlay for G.R. 9 was white. Presuming the boards are pre-war, they most likely started out on J.B.9 or P.B.9 (both Prussian). The good news is the configuration of your blue officer's waffenrock would allow you to find a proper set of boards fairly easily. BTW, is there any additional piping around the Brandenburg cuffs?

Dave

Thanks Chip. With your interest in insignia, I thought the tunic might interest you again.

Dave

A Christmas gathering for Eisenbahn-Regt. Nr. 3, 1917.

Best wishes to all for the holidays and beyond. I found a couple of postcards to contribute to the theme ...

Dave

...And then this tunic doesn't to "fit" anywhere! This post April 1916 "hybrid" field service tunic for an officer in the Bavarian ILR shows an intersting mix of pre- and post -1916 regulations with M-1910 litzen and lion buttons, post-1916 Kennzeichenborte on collar AND cuffs, and post-1916 swedish cuffs and white-piped boards.

Regards

Dave

Chip

Sorry; I confused myself. What a brain f*rt. Lets just go back to where I kinda knew what I was talking about. A M-15 minenwerfer board for either the Friedensuniform or the kleinerrock....

Dave

Tom:

Without state flecking and with a green base, I'm with Chip. Although they have been there a long time, I don't think the crowns were original to the boards. By the way, your pioneer collar tabs are actually for the Garde-Pioneer Batln ( a few other technical eisenbahn, telegraphen, luftschiffer and kraftfahr units) for enlisted prewar overcoats. Regular pioneer and other technical units had just a black tab w/o litzen.

Chip:

I'm confused about the green underlay...Black velvet base and red second piping were the colors for M-15 pioneer officer boards.

Dave

To keep the original thread going, here is another interesting piece.

Chip:

How about a M-1915 board worn on either the friedensuniform or kleinerrock for the Minenwerfer Abteilung assigned to Nachrichtentruppen Kommandeur of I.D. 22.

Dave

Chip

You are right on both accounts. the SB tabs were not reversable, so they were made that way, and I also agree that Christophe's collar tabs are correct for something, just not for his great boards.

Christophe

Actually, the collar tabs that would go with your M-1915 boards are M-1915 bluse double litzen....

Regards

Dave

Mike:

Either the chinscales are correct and the plate is replaced or visa versa. As Joe indicated before, in 1914 the bavarians "simplified" their wappen w/o the intricate vines. Your helmet wappen is the earlier style and as I said before, the chinscales are M-1915 officer style.

Regards

Dave

Ed-- yours in #64 are U.S. Army officer full dress, and despite the "General" appearance were worn (when they were worn) by all ranks, I believe. They usually have the bars or leaves or colonel's eagle on top for the actual rank. So these are either never issued OR date from early enough that they indicated Second Lieutenant when no bar at all was worn by that rank-- try the U.S. Forum about more precise identification than my memory. (Check out the "Other Countries" waaaaay back pages for some Bolivian examples! --

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=690 )

We need to congure up Christophe: I thought from earlier postings that his tabs WERE woven wire and not cloth.

The shape and size preclude Third Reich. So, struggling in deep waters where I am Sergeant Schultz, the objections are

1) material (silver wire versus cloth?

2) the woven central "light" rather than cut out bars showing patch material in the center?

Sea Battalions must have had some YELLOW in there?

These are the kinds of details about which I know nuzzing, NUZZZING with only wartime photos of enlisted men to go by. Can't tell center of patch from any such photo I ever saw, though I knew the cloth versus wire and overcoat shape versus direct tunic collar attachment.

Rick

You are right in thinking Sea Battalion collar tabs have yellow in them. They were found in the litewka and in the overcoat. Here is an SB unteroffizier litewka showing the yellow litzen, white Spiegel and NCO tresse on the bottom (actually it is supposed to be on the top). Perhaps the tailor reversed the tabs when they were applied. M-1910 SB officers collar tabs would look just like the one I posted above ( the piping on the collar would be white though). I know very little about TR, but could Christophe's tabs be for a TR enlisted infantry waffenrock?

Dave

Here is a better shot of an officer's M-1910 litzen on a white backing.

Dave

Kurt

A beautiful and rare Scharpe, considering it was only used from 1914 on....

Regards

Dave

I don't believe Christophe's litzen is imperial. The only enlisted pre-war white collar tab with litzen I could find was D.R.26. Unfortunately the Spiegel is in red. I don't know of any pre-war imperial enlisted white litzen with a white Spiegel, no matter what the backing color. Here is an un-used set

Dave

Ed

I don't have a great deal of knowledge of post 1919 insignia, but IMO these are not German (definately not imperial military). I know that several of the other european nations used Russian braiding for shoulder boards, though. I'm presuming that the braid is in gilt?

Regards

Dave

Mike

Great spike! Unless it is specifically identified, this private purchase NCO helmet could be either the 1. Schweres Reiter Regt. or from the several chevauleger regiments (2,4,6 and 8). The peculiar faux rosettes on the chinscales were specifically used for the M-1915 officer's helmets (and presumably available for other ranks private purchase helmets who wore chinscales) and are fitted on M-91 posts. Very cool....

Regards

Dave

Just for fun, the Litzen

Christophe

Christophe

I looked at this thread again and I just noticed the litzen you had posted. Although German, they are not imperial M-1910 officer collar tabs. Here are a couple to compare with.

Regards

Dave

To add to the topic, a hessian officer's feldbinde.

Christophe:

Are you sure that this cap is identified to a hauptmann? The cockades are for other ranks. Also, this cockade could also be used by the II Btl. (Reuss) of the 7. Thuringisches Inf.-Regt. Nr. 96 as well as the III Btl. (Waldeck-Pyrmont) of Inf.-Regt. Nr. 83.

Regards

Dave

Also, non bavarian based on the collar...

Paul

It is a very good reference set, but is limited. There are three semi-softback covered books which cover the "new" 1915 uniform regulations for Prussia and associated smaller states, like Baden and Oldenburg. They do not cover Bavaria, Saxony, Hesse, Wurttemburg and Mecklenburg. The first book covers Friedensuniform and bluse insignia on Mannschaften; the second book covers the same but with officers and beamten; and the third covers insignia. You can sometimes find the first two books, but the third book is very difficult to find.

Regards

Dave

Paul:

As Chip said, both three-sided and totally enclosed piped officer tabs were utilized on imperial tunics. The medical officer Kragenpatten you have would be worn on the M-1915 bluse.

Chip:

Your hessian general leutnant board is most likely from a divisional commander who had served in the 116th previously. As a first shot, the commander of the 25th Division (Hessian) durning the war was lt. Gen. Frhr. v. Luttwiz, but I don't know what his prior service record was. As far as you red/yellow flecked board, I don't have a clue...

Regards

Dave

Here is a page from book 2 of "Feldgrau in Krieg und Frieden" by Otto Weiss dated 1916.