Ed_Haynes

It is always a tragedy to see an award with history, something someone may have given their life to deserve, turned into sewage. These aren't our possessions to do with as we wish, I fear. This has nothing to do with the "market value". but with issues far more important.

So sad.

My impression (= never seen this in the sources) is that the 1882 Egypt awards to Egyptains were named in the UK (as Egypt was after all in rebellion against the British and their collaborating 'friends' had their gongs UK-named), while later (e.g., Sudan) medals were named in country (and usually in a language relevant to the soldiers, as these awards were merely in addition to their own country's awards). I could be wrong, and would be happy to be proved wrong, but from sources not guessing. I have asked friends to have their students seek in the revelant archives (Cairo) and so far zero.

Owain?????

A medal that was rarely named (e.g. MC or 1939-45 Star [with exceptions]) found unnamed is no surprise to anyone, while one supposed to be named (e.g. Egypt 1882) that isn't tends to become a curiosity, absent evidence. Sad but true (unless someone seeks it to fill a 'gap').

Why this is unnamed is a puzzle. Away from my notes, I think this medal (unlike the Queen's Sdan or any of the later Egyptian medals) was named in English with merely a regimental number when given to Egyptian 'allied' troops. (BB&M is far from reliable on such details of non-European naming.) I'd suspect a mint escapee or later replacement which no one wanted to bother to pay to get named. (The authorities became, over the decades, quite cranky about replacement medals.)

Value? Hard to say. Unnamed medals are not much more than a curiosity, holding no research interest. Surely less than one named to a native (of the British Isles), to an Indian, or to an Egyptian. Unless, of course, someone wanted one unnamed, to "splice" into a group missing one, for example (and then to invent a tall tale to cover the presence of a rogue unnamed medal).

The other thread, by the way, is:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2336

For those signed up over there, there is a longer discussion at

http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=181

There was a set of the later Souval restrikes just sold by Morton & Eden in the final part of their ANS sale. Went at a ridiculously high price for restrikes.

No, Germans serving with the AHF received these awards and other advisers to the PGAH could get them too (like the designer of the awards, a guy named Klietmann). Mainly they were awarded to Indians serving with the AHF (or, in Southeast Asia, the INA). But few Indians received actual medals during the war. Among Third Reich collectors, these are often viewed as German awards, to Germans, and that of course misses the point and magles the history.

Having just been going through some very interesting information on these awards in the National Archives (of India), . . . .

The ribbon bar, if real, would have been awarded to a German serving with the Azad Hind Fauj (Free Indian Army). While I know very little about German ribbon bars -- and was hoping the experts would chime in -- this one seems to my inexpert eyes to be a very bad ribbon bar fantasy.

As an aside, I might mention that there is a full chapter on these PGAH awards, with sample citations, in a too-long-forthcoming book which was just kicked again into motion yesterday.

I have all this information at home. Will check and revert when back in a few days.

and my biggest fear was that they were 'yawners'....thanks for the clarifications.

I could drool over such 'yawners' all day, every day!

Exciting stuff. WOW!

...and the OMSA site too right Ed?

Of course, and here too, if not already up, mostly at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12313

Be careful here and stick to reliable sourcs as there are DANGEROUS fakes about in quantity.

There were good articles in the OMRS journal and JOMSA on this.

Interesting. I feel some changes to the page coming on...

If you can stand it, shall dump TONS of PDRA and other Afghan images on you once I get back.

Thanks a lot, Dave. That confirms the suspicion that I had had that it is an Anghan analogue to something like the Soviet medals for Rescuing a Drowning Person or Bravery in Fire Fighting. A generic civil bravery award. And I'd be tempted to call it something like Civil Bravery Medal, and the use of the "Khalq" would place it tentatively in the 1978-80 period? How's that for a tattered working theory?

Interesting medal, though the name is still elusive. I have never been able to get a good translation of the legend. Whatever it is, it is NOT the "Khalq Medal".

Yes, the standard "military ribbon" of the age.

See: http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/un...-kingdom030.htm

Once you target HIM on the multi-card page that the National Archives sent (one card only, usually), the codes are not THAT hard to break.

Are sure that this is "Francis George Young"?

The notoriously cranky online London Gazette shows an MBE (military) to one "Lieutenant- (D.O.) Francis George Young, Royal Artillery." in the 1924 Birthday Honours (30 May 1924).

It also shows as of 8 June 1919: "R. S.M. Francis George Young to be Lt. (D.O.), 26th Nov.- 1918, .with seniority next below Lt. (D'.O.)1 J. Old, but without pay and allowances prior to 8th June 1919."

Isn't it fair to assume that anything this immensely rare that comes up through eBay rather than through a reputable real dealer is 99.99996% surely fake?

Nice ones!

The use of Leningrad (and not "St. Petersburg") and of "Volograd" (and not Stalingrad) suggests a date period for these lovelies?

A nice Type 3.2, Ferdinand, though damaged and then badly and clumsily repaired.

I can't imagine fakes of any except the first (two flags) vartiety. Though, who knows, everything else in the universe seems to be faked these days, so why not the humble Polar Star?

Sorry, but it makes me feel good to see that others have this same sort of problem. Don't worry, WC.

As with Micro$oft, we await version 1.1 of Question 132.

Lovely thread, but that last one pretty much says it all. Wow.

Was thinking about adding mine, but, now . . . when the big bell has rung why add a little tinkle.

I assume the research possibilities on one that early are slight? (Never had the chance to try.)

Thanks, Bill!

Glad to see this out. Thanks, Guy!

Would anyone really expect a legitimate specimen of this incredibly rare item to appear on eBay?? Seems more the sort of thing a serious, specialist auction house would deal in.

Wow!

Thanks for this, Christian.

Or, to focus in on the important part: