Ed_Haynes

Interesting, even though this is a Mongolian award to a Soviet, rather than a Soviet award to a Mongolian (the thread).

I have some doubts about his three Sukhbaatars, but the rolls will reveal all.

His hero was 5 July 1971 (same day as Konev and Sudets got theirs). And here he is from that series on heroes:

VERY nice. And lucky you getting RESEARCH in. Wow!

Yes, a NIB. Clearly something to do with military construction (category "N''). For refernce, let us call it "N NIB 04"?

I shall merge this into the main thread for coherence and to limit thread proliferation.

Not just a house order, a state order, from the State of Johore, a part of Malaysia.

I know everyone is taking great hormonal joy in venting their wrath, but may I just say that I mainly feel sorry for this pitiful specimen. Frankly, I think ridicule is more appropriate than judicial punishment. Other countries (such as Australia) have taken this route with great success. Maybe Americans just like lawyers and punishment more than others do?

Moreover, the so-called "Stolen Valor" legislative abomination has nothing to do with this, other than it may have been the legal excuse. Old laws could have caught him in his "crime" just as easily. The new law has allowed some self-appointed "patriots", both in and out of Congress, to feel self-righteous by assaulting pitiful "Walter Mitty" wanna-bes and legitimate medal collectors alike.

I see little here to celebrate, much to pity, on all sides.

The "Defence of Lucknow" that I led off with is named, by the way, to "Sirdar Peeroo, Lucknow Garrison". Most likely an Indian civilian who got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Research is ongoing.

Havildar Golab Singh, 1st Regiment Sikh Infantry

1- Punjab Campaign Medal, 1848-49 - Sepoy ___aub Singh 1st Sikh Local R.

2- India General Service Medal, 1854-95 - NORTHWEST FRONTIER - unnamed (see below)

3- Indian Mutiny, 1857-58 - Havr Golab Singh 1st Regt Sikh Infy

One of the first Sikhs (probably a veteran of earlier Sikh service?) to be recruited into the Indian Army?

The IGS54, I have to admit, is an unnamed representative "restoration" (an ethically "gray" act by my personal standards). The group was obtained in India in the midst of one of the mid-70s silver "booms". I was able to save Golab Singh's Punjab and Mutiny medals even while watching his IGS with NWF clasp dissolve in front in my eyes into the silver melting pot, chocolate fondue style. The nightmare image still haunts me.

Just a few more, some shown elsewhere on the forum.

Risaldar-Major Mir Alam Khan, Sardar Bahadur, IOM, 1st Punjab Cavalry

1- Indian Order of Merit, 3rd class - unnamed

Admission to the IOM3 was for the action at Rampur Kasia on 3 Nov 1858 during the early stages of the so-called 'winter campaign' in Oudh.

Advancement to the IOM2 was for gallantry at Syad-but in Shorawak on 27 March 1879 where the escort to Mr O.T. Duke, Asst Agent to the Gov-Gen for Baluchistan, fended off an attack by 1,600 Baraitch Pathans. Mir Alam was also mentioned for Ahmad Khel on 19.4.1880 where he 'set a good example to all by his forwardness'.

The group was acquired years ago in India with this IOM along with it. Where are his other medals?!

2- Mutiny Medal - no clasp - "Naib Risaldar Mir Alam Khan 1st Reg Punjab Cavy"

Enrolled 1 April 1858 as Jemadar without prior service in the ranks

Ressaidar 1 May 1868

Risaldar 1 November 1878.

Risaldar Major 13 June 1882

retired in 1885 or soon thereafter

My guess is that he was entitled to three campaign medals: Mutiny no clasp, IGS one clasp NWF, Afghan one clasp Ahmad Khel.

His awards were:

IOM3 GGO 645 of 29 April 1859 (wef 3 November 1858)

IOM2 PGO 190 of 19 March 1880 (wef 27 March 1879)

OBI2 GGO 571 of 21 October 1881

OBI1 GGO ??? of 17 October 1885

Actually, to clarify from Bartel:

Single-class:

? Type 1 ? Numbered on reverse, ribbon on wreath enameled, suspension 39.0 x 38.2 mm, 1955-19??

? Type 2 ? Numbered on reverse, ribbon on wreath enameled, suspension 41.8 x 36.8 mm, 19??-1959

? Type 3 ? Unnumbered, ribbon on wreath enameled, banner with narrow striations, 1959-1968

? Type 4 ? Unnumbered, ribbon on wreath enameled, banner with broad striations, 1969

? Type 5 ? Unnumbered, ribbon on wreath lacquered, banner with broad striations, 1970-74

? Type 6 - Unnumbered, ribbon on wreath painted, suspension 36.8 x 36.3 mm, 1975

Three-class:

? Type 1 ? Smooth reverse, 1974-19??

? Type 2 ? Finely pebbled reverse, 19??-1989

? Type 3 ? Enamel is now paint, polyester ribbon, roughly pebbled reverse, 1989

(And someone with a better technical German vocabulary than I might do better than this??)

Nice thread, Eric. Thanks for this. the BdA is one of my friends.

The breakdown you have given, is essentially, what Bartel shows, though maybe we could do for his classifications what we have done elsewhere for Battushig's Mongolian nomenclature. I think your dates are the same as his (need to check), but, again, maybe we can do better.

If no one beats me to it, I shall bring my specimens on home leave and add some scans.

Thanks again!

Lest we forget . . . .

List amended as suggested, but we've had an... ahem... more social evening tonight so that will be it for now! Thanks for the help, I'll be back for more...

Social evenings are always good!

And always here to help.

To finish cleaning the list:

Medal for the Victory Over Japan

Medal for the 25th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution

Medal for the 40th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution

Medal of Friendship

Medal for the 30th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol

Medal for the 50th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution

Medal for the 50th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Army

Medal for the 50th Anniversary of State Security of the Mongolian People's Republic

Medal for the 50th Anniversary of the Militia of the Mongolian People's Republic

Medal for the 30th Anniversary of the Victory Over Japan

Medal for the 40th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol

Medal Glory of the Virgin Lands

Medal for the 60th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Revolution

Medal of Brotherhood in Arms

Medal for the 50th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol

Medal for a Meritorious Functionary of the Mongolian People's Republic

Medal of the State Prize of the Mongolian People's Republic

Medal for Teachers of the Young Generation

Medal for Cosmonauts of the Mongolian People's Republic

Maybe, instead:

Medal "We Won"

Medal "20 Years of Khalkin Gol"

Medal "25th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Republic"

Medal "40th Anniversary of the Mongolian People's Republic"

Medal "30th Anniversary of Victory at Khalkin Gol"

Medal "50 Years of the Mongolian People's Revolution"

Medal "50 Years of the Mongolian People's Army"

Medal "50 Years of State Security of the Mongolian People's Republic"

Medal "50 Years of the Police of the Mongolian People's Republic"

Medal "50 Years of the Mongolian People's Republic"

Medal "30th Anniversary of the Victory over Militaristic Japan"

Medal "40th Years of the Victory at Khalkin Gol"

Medal "60 Years of the Mongolian People's Revolution"

Medal "60 Years of the Armed Forces of the MPR"

Medal "50 Years of Khalkin Gol"

Medal "70 Years of the Mongolian People's Revolution"

Medal "80 Years of the Mongolian People's Republic"

Medal "Glory of the Virgin Land Cultivators" (moved)

Medal of Friendship (moved)

Medal of Brotherhood in Arms

Medal for the 50th Anniversary of Victory at Chalkin Gol

Medal for a Meritorious Functionary of the Mongolian People's Republic

Medal of the State Prize of the Mongolian People's Republic

Medal for Teachers of the Young Generation (huh?!)

Medal for Cosmonauts of the Mongolian People's Republic

Beyond that, there are the "badges" (though I am less that secure about this distinction). Some may deserve inclusion?

Not sure it is worth scanning the obverse, since we know what they look like by now, but a new arrival and new low datapoint for the mirrorback variety, 180. With nice (original?) МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР screwplate. Some gilt remains on the hammer, if you squint real hard.

Giving us:

Type 1 (mirror reverse, thin silver gilt) - Low = 180/High = 5009

Type 2 (flat reverse, silvered bronze) - Low = 16/High = 886

Well, as a starting point we have what has already been published, and then we need to correct & improve on that. Sparrows on the shoulders of giants or whatever!

So 'Order of the Polar Star' isn't the right name for the beast? So after 'Order of Combat Valour' goes ? 'Order of the Golden Pole'?

Sparrows dropping our . . . whatever . . . onto those giants' (that giant's) shoulders? (Not sure I'll share THAT image with Bat!)

For the time being, I'd stick with the names Battushig has used. Right or wrong. There will be a long and flat learning curve and much kvetching when we undertake a serious rectification of the names.

So . . .

. . .

Order of the Red Banner of Labour Valour

Order of Combat Valor

Order of the Polar Star

Order of Mother Heroine

Honorary Medal of Combat

Honorary Medal of Labour

. . .

Some of the translations may not be the best, but they are habituated in English. The only one that Battushig realls wants us to drop is the "Order of the Precious Rod" and go with the Order of the Vajra.

Just it all makes UPS, DHL, or FedEx look better and better?

For better or worse, and it does have some problems, I guess we need to stick with Battushig's book, and fix those errors that he himself has identified. He will be sending me an eratta sheet when I remember to nag him that he promised one specially drawn up for posting on this forum. I have urged Bat also, for the next edition, to ignore what we foreigners normally call the awards (e.g. the Order of the Polar Star) and substitute correct translations from the Mongolian names (Order of the Golden Pole) and to give the names in Mongolian.

The problems that have gotten into our usage and our understanding -- like poison in the well -- from earlier flawed sources need to be erradicated lest they proliferate. It seems to be easier to learn new things that to unlearn wrong things?

Thank you.

What comes next?

Next?

My advice would be, first, to do some reordering and fix some names in their common English nomenclature. Just taking the first few, you have:

Hero of the Mongolian People's Republic

Hero of Labour of the Mongolian People's Republic

Honorary Freeman of the Mongolian People's Republic

Order of Sukhbaatar

Order of Military Merit

Order of the Red Banner of Military Valour

Order of the Red Banner of Labour Valour

Order of the Polar Star

Order of Mother Heroine

Medal for Combat Merit

Honour Medal of Labour

Medal of Chalkin Gol

Medal for Unselfishness

Whereas it should be:

Hero of the Mongolian People's Republic

Hero of Labour of the Mongolian People's Republic

Honorary Freeman of the Mongolian People's Republic

Badge of Cosmonaut of Mongolia (which you may show further down under some very odd name)

State Prize (including Choibalsan Prize) (which you may show further down under some very odd name)

Badge of the Title "People's" (which you may show further down under some very odd name)

The Title of Merit

D. Natsadorj Literary Prize

Golden Star of the Marshal of Mongolia

Sukhbaatar Order

Order of the Red Banner of Military Valour

Order of the Red Banner of Labour Valour

Order of Combat Valor (name wrong and out of order)

Order of the Polar Star

Order of Mother Heroine

Honorary Medal of Combat

Honorary Medal of Labour

Medal for Unselfishness

Medal of Khalkin Gol

Whether you want to bother with things like the Order of the Vajra and the Order of Chengis Khan is another question.

Unless you want to go back and fill in the prizes, the Mother Heroine Stuff would be next? It will be easy enough to do!

Will check again on the order of the stuff after the Khankin Gol medal/badge. I assume there is no need to dip down into the badges and include very early things like the Partisan Badge?

My two kopecks worth:

1- Order of glory 2n class in th 24 xxx range

2- PW 1st class in the 226 xxx range

3- Nevsky in the 42 xxx range

4- Pw 2nd class in the 417 xxx range

5- Combat service in the 168 xxx range

6- Lenin in the 215 xxx range

7- Red banner in the 90 xxx range

8- Red star in the 810 xxx range

October revolution(?) in the 104 xxx range - cannot be researched

Still . . . clinically insane . . . e$cam nonsense. Why do people not deal with real dealers???

Yes, but more to the point . . . !!

Well I have put up my first attempt at this... comments/corrections/additions welcome!

At first glance, it looks good, but I suspect, for your purposes, some of the typology can be collapsed. Let me ponder.

The direct link: http://www.medals.org.uk/mongolia/mongolia007.htm

Just in, on a Polar Star (type 3.1), # 554, what seems to be a sabre blade and part of a rifle receiver?

Actually I saw that one in UB, JC, but didn't note it. Really really sloppy numbering, but seems OK to me. That does bracket the type 1.1.1 => type 1.1.2 threshold between 1499 and 1557. Anyone care to guess?

Thanks!

A new low number data point for the type 1.1.2 (ca. 1946-56?): Screwback, Uigur, SN without prefix, seperately soldered ring.

This number (1557) gives us a serial number range for this type of 1557-11953 (with 985 being the highest observed number for type 1.1.1).